GREATEST METAL ALBUM CUP - Winner: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son!

You are 100% correct.

While everyone agrees on the raw definition of inventor vs innovator, people disagree in framing. In this example someone might not see "heavy metal" as an invention, just an innovative approach to playing rock and roll. Evolutionary vs revolutionary.
Agreed... nevvertheless you're leaving some points along the way. I see where you come from and Hendrix and the fab four's Helter Skelter surely did influenced a lot HM but there are much more evident precursors like MC5, The Stooges, Blue Cheer, etc...

Some people argue that Beatles/Hendrix did the complete groundwork for heavy music and 1970- "Heavy Metal" is just taking this small piece of 'rock and roll' and going with it all the way. For them Sabbath's heavy distorted tritone is just a variation of the topic.

Of course Sabbath's debut only features one really "metal song" (and what a dire and heavy song!). Nevertheless it's from their second album forward that the band really established the whole genre: Electric Funeral, Iron Man, Hand Of Doom or even the title track are quite different beasts when it comes to intensity, heaviness and thematic than the rest of the previous album (excluding the title track). This is creation: a band that centered their essence on an entirely new basis: their songs are based on dire concepts (wandering through dark themes in various aspects of real life - depression, fear, war, anger- and culture - sci-fi, horror) while systematically releasing various heavy as hell songs in every single album. And that's the big dividing line between Sabbath and Hendrix, The Beatles, Blue Cheer, The Stooges, MC5 and even Purple and Zeppelin.

Others argue that metal prior to early 1980s did not exist at all

Errrrrr...I know these are subjective matters but come on. I won't even reinforce the Sabbath case: Motorhead's Overkill and Bomber? Judas Priest's albums if we exclude Rocka Rolla? Not to mention that some Maiden songs were already really popular on the late 70's. It's not by accident that heavy Metal magazine is created in 1977, a publication that completely depicts the genre's imaginary and would be adapted to cinema 4 years later... featuring 70's bands. Come on: metal as cultural phenom was already far from inducted back in 1980.

Sabbath is a doom band while everyone bar the most 'extreme' NWOBHM is hard rock, metal proper stating with the first speed/black/thrash bands, in the age of true guitar distortion.

Well... that makes my point: the majority of 80's Doom bands (Trouble, Pentagram, Candlemass) are way heavier than 80's heavy metal bands (and if we go further into the 90's with the rise of Death Doom it's laughable). As for the first speed/black/thrash bands, when it comes to distortion and speed they're almost on the same level of Motorhead's lntensity on albums like Overkill, Bomber or Ace Of Spades. What they brought new to the table was something else.
 
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First of all, let's get one thing straight: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence isn't a song. It's the title of an album that has 8 separate (!) conceptual songs and the title of the album thematically combines those 8 songs. For any other band previous sentence wouldn't make sense but for Dream Theater it makes perfect sense. The moment they've decided to split and publish them as 8 different songs, there's no debate. There's not even a degree (pun intended) of discussion like Pink Floyd's "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" where you can discuss if the whole thing is two different songs or one song combined of nine parts. And no, I don't take Score into account where they've released it as a single song because there are also other official live recordings where "parts of that song" are published separate. Best I can do is call it "an concept EP inside of an LP".

Onto the album itself. First of all, this is the second album that I've listened. I knew nothing about the album but even within the first song, I've tried to guess a release date and I was off by a couple of months. Since then, I've heard several different bands on several DT's albums and 6DOIT reeks of 2001/2002: Linkin Park, Rage Against the Machine, Tool or any other band that MTV labeled "alternative" in that period - I can hear on this album. Funny enough, later I've found out that Radiohead was a big inspiration for this one (including the album cover) and I still haven't found time to listen to Radiohead, so who am I to judge? Also, I've thought of dissecting some of these songs in EPICS TOURNAMENT, but I'm listening to album right now so I'm doing the whole thing.

The Glass Prison
I'll try to write my thoughts and feelings like it's the first time like I'm listening to this song. After all, it was only 2 years ago and I can still remember it vividly:

So, the album starts with static from the previous one (Scenes from a Memory) going into an eerie piano melody before the rest of the bands join. OK so far, I guess it's an annunciation for the rest of the song. Nope, a wild riff appears! That's a good riff. Damn, that's a really good riff. Portnoy starts drumming and... Excuse me, I meant to say Portnoy starts to bang the shit out of that drum set. That's not drumming, that's bombarding! And then Petrucci starts soloing... Now, a trained music ear will probably hear some guitar scales in minor or major or general or corporal. What I hear is a picture of bleeding fingers flying over the guitar so fast that the guitar neck is smoking like it's going to be set on fire any second. Holy shit, what an awesome start and only 2 minutes have passed!

On the first listen I noticed that first vocal wasn't as I remember it (note: Mike Portnoy opens the song with clean vocals [!] portraying the light side while James distorted voice is in the background portraying dark side). Then James's vocal comes clean and it's like an M-16 flying inches over your head. At this moment, it's like a song goes to 11, fuck, it like this song invented going to 11! That riff again and those thunderous drums and at this moment I feel like I'm in battlefield of awesomness.

James doesn't need to sing "Fatal descend, spinning around", you can actually hear that Jordan Rudess' piano. "What the hell is wrong with me?!" I exclaim. "Where has this been all my life? This is the best 4 minute build up in a song!" my arms are in the air with disbelief "Why haven't I listened this before?! Why didn't people point me in this direction???" And then I get all the answers in a form of chorus.

I haven't been this thrown out of a song since I've first heard Maiden's "Longest Day" back in '06. Imagine starting an immersive video game and your conscious can't even grasp how much of fun you are having and suddenly someone turns off the PC. You don't even get that "duh-dah-dah-dun" Windows sound - it's just black screen. In shock and disbelief, you turn the PC again, looking at the BIOS loading up as you try to gather your thoughts and try to discern what has just happened. That's how I felt when that chorus hit - it's that bad.

Anyway, after the chorus comes again that intro melody and you hope the song picks up again. I mean, it's not going to be like it could've been, the bed is already shat. But, the song changed drasticaly after that first melody. Maybe it will happen again, maybe we get something different. And unfortunately, we do. Something very different. Something that sounds like somebody distilled something disgusting and splattered it all over the song. I'm not even going to name it. Those who've heard the song know what I'm talking about and those who don't - I do not wish this evil upon you.

Portnoy is going "tough" with his vocals and... Ahh.... I this point I gave up. If the purpose of this song is to show the dangers of alcohol, they've done a wonderful job. Those first 4 minutes feel like that blissfull state of mild drunkness while the rest of the song is the worst hangover ever, one of those where you know the hangover isn't worth being drunk and you swore you'll never drink again.

There are some interesting parts later in the song, especially with Jordan and I guess Myung and Portnoy get in a really good grove but I still can't get over the fact what an U turn this song has been. Even worse, the song doesn't end on a high note. Portnoy and LaBrie bump around like two farts in an underpants not knowing how to open the door. There's a door, door won't open, I walk away, door still aren't open.... O' for fuck just grab the handle, open that fucking door and finish this song.

So, that were my first initial thoughts to this song and 2 years later, they haven't changed a bit. I learn to digest it a bit better with time, but I still stand with my first initial reaction. Those first 4 minutes are one of the best buildups in prog/metal genre followed by one of the worst fu**ups. TBH, that song kind of started shaping my opinion on Dream Theater. When they're great - they're really great. But when they're not, you ask yourself "What the hell were they thinking?!"

Anyway, this turned out longer than I planned, so I'm doing the rest of the album in another post.
Sorry people, it seems like you're stuck with me rambling in this thread today.
 
Ripper is literally just bootleg Halford.
I prefer Halford's voice but Owens is what??? "Bootleg Halford"???? LOooooooooooOOOOL! This guy is one of the more versatile singers metal has ever seen. Good luck getting Halford to mimic Layne Staley, Phil Anselmo, Max Cavalera, among many others like Tim did.
 
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I prefer Halford's voice but Owens is what??? "Bootleg Halford"???? LOooooooooooOOOOL! This guy is one of the more versatile singers metal has ever seen. Good luck getting Halford to mimic Layne Staley, Phil Anselmo, Max Cavalera, among many others like Tim did.
And I'd rather listen to those singers than Tim doing impressions of them.

Look, I don't actually dislike Ripper. He's fine. I respect his range a lot, he seems to just unleash it like an arsenal he constantly carries with him. But he's just not great. I wouldn't put him in the same realms as Barlow, Halford, Staley, or Anselmo. Those guys have personality. Ripper doesn't.

Another issue with Ripper is the way he switches from chest voice into head voice. Firstly - his chest voice is wobbly and his head voice is thin as hell. Halford sounds very similar but there's much more confidence in his shrieks than Ripper possesses. And Rob makes you believe he's literally just ascending when he sings. Ripper is like shifting gears in a Trabant. Holy hell. You can tell he's going from chest to head voice because there's that slight change happening and it doesn't sound good. And when he comes back down it's like he's nutting in the most un-passionate way possible. Like, let's get this over with, okay.

I don't know all the technical terminology and whatnot (maybe @MrKnickerbocker can help me out there), but Barlow, like Halford and Dickinson, is the kind of singer who makes you believe that he's just going up. There's no switch in his voice. All three - you can tell when they're doing chest or head, but you can't tell when that change takes place. Barlow sound like he's literally lifting up his chest voice and bringing it into his head voice, which gives him the thickest sounding high notes I have ever heard. He is probably the most powerful singer I know of.

And please, Ripper never shattered glass like Barlow did in "A Question of Heaven" or "Come What May". I know music is subjective, but there is no objective way you can say that Ripper is better. Maybe you prefer him, but that's a different matter altogether.

(Sorry for the unhinged nature of this post, I just came by to write this during a miniature essay on William Blake I'm doing for my English class.)
 
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ADDENDUM: Jon Schaffer is a terrible writer when it comes to vocal lines, but you'd never know that during Barlow's stint in Iced Earth because of how strong of a singer he is. Very similar to Bruce's singing Steve's songs in Maiden. But when Ripper joined the band, it was very easy to hear. I love "Greenface", but "A war-ri-or - down-to-the - depthsofmysoul"... I mean, yeesh. If it was Barlow singing it, he would have sold the idea and the narrative so much better.

Also, Barlow sounds so much more like a Marine than Ripper ever will. Ripper sounds like the guy who acts all tough and then gets the shit kicked out of him in actual combat. Barlow sounds like the sergeant who has to come save his ass.

Anyway...
 
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I prefer Halford's voice but Owens is what??? "Bootleg Halford"???? LOooooooooooOOOOL! This guy is one of the more versatile singers metal has ever seen. Good luck getting Halford to mimic Layne Staley, Phil Anselmo, Max Cavalera, among many others like Tim did.
And this is why he will never get the respect that they all get. In metal, you don't have to be technically flawless or the most gifted singer in the world, but you must have the personality and charisma of a frontman, as well as a distinct voice. Owens has none of these.

Edit: Sorry, I just saw Diesel has said something very similar.
 
Oh God:

Barlow in the same sentence as Dickinson or Halford... what's this world coming to? :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: . Plus Owen's technique is more refined, his range is much wider, his timbre much stronger. If you don't like it that's another story... there's a lot of great singers I dislike but I don't invent flaws where there are none. I prefer Ozzy's voice in Sabbath than Dio's... but I wouldn't dare saying Ozzy is better than Dio. Same goes for people who prefer Paul to Bruce.
Plus... "Barlow sounds tough" and "Ripper sounds like he gets the shit kicked out of him in actual combat". Do you even begin to understand how much of a nonsense this is? Mustaine sounds like an old witch and Poulsen from Volbeat voice resembles la la la rocker and I'M PRETTY MUCH SURE a younger Mustaine or Poulsen would simply wipe the ground with the majority of metal singers. My question is what the hell does it has to do with singing????

Sorry... this is way to irrational for me to even comment any further
 
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And this is why he will never get the respect that they all get. In metal, you don't have to be technically flawless or the most gifted singer in the world, but you must have the personality and charisma of a frontman, as well as a distinct voice. Owens has none of these.

Edit: Sorry, I just saw Diesel has said something very similar.

Love this image so much to counter point "facts" like "charisma" and "personality":

Lebowski-Opinion-Meme.jpg
 
I don't see how my opinion is different from your "facts."
Technique, Range Timbre = factual measurable attributes.
Charisma and personality = subjective attributes that vary from person to person (i.e. : lots of people think Manowar are quite charismatic and have strong personality. Many others think they're clowns).

Understood? I'm glad we are.
 
@LooseCannon is there any chance this round could be extended by a day? I understand if not. It’s just that I really want to give the songs a proper listen but won’t have time to do it today.
 
Blind Faith
I'm going straight to the head with and say this one "suffers" from the same syndrome as previous one - bad chorus. Now, it's not as bad as The Glass Prison, but I have a feeling that the chorus is there only because there has to be one. Again, which is a shame because Dream Theater is really good at building up mood by doing "proggy" things only to be directionleslly stuck on such an important matter. Intro and verses aren't as versitile as people could expect from them, but the mood is there - no doubt.

While here, I'd like to say this is the album where each one of them (except Myung maybe) got several spots to shine and boy, did they used them. Previously in this thread I said I'm in a camp "no perfect albums" and I can even get caught in a debate on "no perfect songs" but there are perfect musical moments. One of those is in this song, timed at 6:13. For six minutes you listen to composition made of drums, guitar, synth only for them to stop abruptly and give way to this masterpiece. The way Jordan's fingers fly over piano key is magnificent, like one of those sights where you see a huge flock of small birds in a sky. It's so chaotic, yet so coordinated you can not help yourself but just stop and admire the spectacle. Actually, that part raised the whole song. After it I don't even mind the chorus because I witnessed something so genuinely beautiful.

Misunderstood
This one often gets overlooked and I have no idea why. Less is more here, and the way they use such mild and bland strokes to paint a cumbersome picture is magnificent. Also, lyrics. If English is your native language, those probably don't mean much. But recently friend and me discussed this one and he couldn't stop praising the way lyrics were constructed and the use of phrases (and let's not forget this is the same band who 7 years later has "ma bruthaaa" as lyrics). Also, I guess he showed me cover of Misunderstood by some gal long ago because when I heard this song I had a feeling like I've known it for a long time. The way the chorus kicks in, man, if they made an radio version of this one running 4 minutes or less I guarantee you it would get a lot of air time. The chorus just has that commercial appeal. And I don't even dislike the end as most people do. To those who don't know - Petrucci did a solo then, for a joke, inverted it. When he realised it sounded good he learned the inverted version.

The Great Debate
If Blind Faith was Jordan's place to shine, The Great Debate is definitely Portnoy's. To be honest, I'm the last person to say something about drumming, I hope someone more educated could explain what is happening in those first 3 minutes. I mean, I have no idea what's going on but it didn't stop me to enjoy that intro. Also, this is a song which made me starting to like Dream Theater more and more. It took me many, many listens to catch up everything that is going on in there, primarily uniqueness of each part while still serveing its role. A lot of people joke about James LaBrie's singing and how he's stuck into 4/4 for decades now while the rest of them hike into other tempos all the time, but let me tell you this - if LaBrie followed their way they wouldn't be as half as popular as they are now. His limited singing (I'm talking about tempo, not about his range) makes them much more approachable and "commercial". One of the examples was this song. The way he delivers that part "Human kind has reached the turning point" in a same way for completely two different musical parts must be kind of an achievement, I guess. Once I blasted The Great Debate in my car and I realised how different those two parts sounded while serving the same purpose within the song. I mean, even now, as I'm listening to it for the first time on bit more expensive headphones, I can hear bits and bobs that Jordan throws throughout the song. It may sound funny, but it takes a great deal of effort to make a song which you will like on your first listen and still discover something new within it two years later.
And another thing: to choose such a comprehensive and delicate topic and portraying both sides while still not taking a decisive side in less than 14 minutes - that takes some serious songwriting skills.

Disappear
I don't think there is a single person in the world who would go: Damn, I want to listen to "Disappear"! I'm gonna go blast that one right now! But if we're talking about a song which encompasses a certain feeling, it hits all the right spots. I have no idea what the guy in the song is going through (for those who don't know, he found out his partner has a terminal disease) but you can almost feel the pain and despair in that dizzy piano effect. The theme of heartbreak just oozes throughout the whole song to the point you could almost see the guy in the pit of darkness not seeing his way out. And if this is considered a ballad, it is an exception to the rest of the Dream Theater ones which sound like those formulaic radio pop ballads.

Oof, this also took some space. I'll try to cram next 8 in a single post and that is the last one considering Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, I promise.
 
What I'm saying is that the range is worth jackshit if you only use it to imitate others.
Yes, this. Barlow is a C2-B5 and Ripper is a D2-E6. KJ is right when he says that Ripper has a bigger vocal range, but that doesn’t mean he’s a better singer. Till Lindemann is has a very small range and yet I think most people would agree that he’s a great singer with a lot of power and uniqueness. And for what it’s worth, Barlow always sounds like he goes higher and lower than Ripper, even though that’s not actually true. He excels in theater of the mind. Ripper does not.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and this is of course my own opinion. Forgot that I need to specify that with every post!
 
Charisma and personality = subjective attributes that vary from person to person (i.e. : lots of people think Manowar are quite charismatic and have strong personality. Many others think they're clowns).

It's not true that charisma is subjective. There is scientific research into this topic. From what I can see, there is no consensus on how it is measurable, but it is a term used and defined by researchers. But you don't even need that. Owens, as @Ariana pointed out, basically lost every job he was given. In the case of Priest, it is clear the band let him go the moment Halford was going to return. In the case of Iced Earth, Schaffer fired him the moment he knew he had a shot at recording the next album with Barlow. We can argue all day about how strong his onstage charisma is in absolute terms, but it was clear that those people he worked with thought he was a lesser option than the guys he'd replaced.
And yeah, I saw Owens with Iced Earth in 2007 and with Barlow a year later. Owens did a lot of technical things that impressed me, but he didn't know how to work a crowd that was there to see his band. Barlow on the other hand had everyone eating out of his hand, and IE were supporting Saxon that night. And a glance at the audience in terms of age, band shirts and so on made it clear most people were there to see Saxon.
 
We're not. And, please, in the future refrain from mansplaining - it looks bad for you. Fact.

What I'm saying is that the range is worth jackshit if you only use it to imitate others.
Want a tangible measurement of charisma? How about being kicked out of every band you have fronted? Oh, and being replaced by a hologram.
A ) If you think the guy just imitates others it's your problem not his.
B ) Yup... and how about being selected to be part of one of the biggest metal bands ever and making bands and projects with some of the best musicians ever in the genre like Andreas Kisser, Mike Portnoy, Dave Ellefson, Yngwie Malmsteen, Steve Di Giorgio, among many others? Just like Barlow did, right? Oh... wait...

Finally I didn't even know what mansplaining was... but don't bother because I won't talk to you any further.

And yeah... Now we're through for good.
Bye.
 
A ) If you think the guy just imitates others it's your problem not his.
B ) Yup... and how about being selected to be part of one of the biggest metal bands ever and making bands and projects with some of the best musicians ever in the genre like Andreas Kisser, Mike Portnoy, Dave Ellefson, Yngwie Malmsteen, Steve Di Giorgio, among many others? Just like Barlow did, right? Oh... wait...

Finally I didn't even know what mansplaining was... but don't bother because I won't talk to you any further.

And yeah... Now we're through for good.
Bye.
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