For the Greater Good of God

How good is For the Greater Good of God on a scale of 1-10?


  • Total voters
    36
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

It fits the theme of the songs, doesn't it?  :)
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Maverick said:
It fits the theme of the songs, doesn't it?  :)

Hey that's interesting ! Who knows 'Arry might have done it on purpose. Didn't realize this !
 

Raven

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Forostar said:
Listening to this song, I noticed that Steve borrowed some of his own music from "Blood on the World's Hands".

Compare:

"Blood on the World's Hands"    --> 1.47-2.04  and  5.23-end
with:
"For the Greater Good of God"  --> 6.02-6.16  and  6.30-6.44

I did think that Blood on the World's Hands played a big role in influencing this song...firstly in the bass intro (although BotWH's is far better) and then in the heavy bridges.  Still, this is one of the darkest songs on the album, and BotWH was definitely the darkest song on The X Factor (although they were all pretty dark)
 

Genghis Khan

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

I'll just make several key points, Maiden Forever.

- Just because the Islam radicals (Al Qaeda) drew first blood starting with 9/11 does not mean that every counter-measure the West (read: the Bush government) adopts will be wise or rightous.  Also, people can have long memories.  Iran Contra and the Afghan-Soviet war both had American influences.  Sometimes the West does not finish its job and leaves the people hanging.  Negative feelings build and build, as a result. 

Maiden Forever said:
The mayor pandered to him [Hugo Chavez] and allowed him to enter NY, spent millions of $ for protection of these psychos

- Just because Chavez is allowed to come to NYC does not mean that liberals agree with his policies (besides making fun of Bush, "the Devil", that is; which is very easy, and I admit sometimes fun to do).  Maybe some people believe that diplomacy leads to more options and prevents needless killing of innocents.  For example, China is slowly, but increasingly, becoming friendly to the West and Western ideologies.  Diplomacy is to thank for that, and I don't mean cowboy diplomacy.  Certainly, diplomacy does not always work, but unless a nation is under direct and immediate threat there is no reason to go to war.

Maiden Forever said:
A case and point.  Several months ago, a BOB animal started shooting 13 innocent people here in the states.  Killing innocent Jewish women and children in cold blood,

- Sometimes media reports that specific Muslim extremist(s) have done this or that, sometimes it leaves the individual(s) reasoning for violence out of their reports.  In Canada, this Summer, 21 Muslims were arrested for planning to demolish buildings and cause havoc.  Your example of Jewish deaths in Seattle did not mention reasons for violence, it seems.  While I could give you my opinions on why media decides such things, I suggest you blog or mail your own questions to the media source, yourself.  I'll make this simple point, which is that reporters and journalists are not afraid to talk about Islamic extremists if they see a good reason to do so, i.e. to protect the public.  I'm not sure that political correctness has much if any reasoning behind it.

Maiden Forever said:
Maiden is a band that reaches many of us and has much influence.  I wish they will be more candid in what they are trying to sing about.  This is Metal, not elevator music.  Metal is in your face, if you don't like it then turn it off.  Metal was revolutionary and blunt!  Pop is for the masses and has to be politically correct. 

While under ordinary circumstances I'd praise you in superlatives for your passionate championing of metal music, given the fact that you do not see both sides of the anti-terrorism issue after several posts and persuasions by several BB members, I'd in fact feel much relief if you gave up all kinds of metal music forever.  Frankly, I don't want a great band like Iron Maiden to be associated with fans filled with blind rage.  Metal does not need to be blunt, it can be subtle and may require great discussions, as 'A Matter of Life and Death' is demonstrating on this board.  I'll admit something now that I've never done before; the Grunge movement helped metal music in this particular regard.  I'll leave you with my chief point:  while this superb song does not mention Islamic radicals by name, notice, it also does not mention any Christian radicals by name.  Thus, your whole point and rant are invalid. 
 

Natalie

Insect of Terror
Staff member
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Thankyou Genghis Khan. I've been following this thread for a while now and have been growing increasingly dismayed with every post from Maiden Forever. Since Perun and yourself have been replying so wisely to his rants I thought I wouldn't interfere.

However, I do have this to say on the subject of metal and 'in your face'. It might be 'in your face' about certain issues yes, but consider the stupidity of a band that is 'in your face' about something they don't know, or a culture they don't belong to? Iron Maiden is a western band, at least one of their members is christian, and their cultural background is that of the average European. Therefore, they are justified in critisizing 'white man' and the catholic church because it is part of their culture. They are not justified in critisizing muslims the way they do the catholic church because...none of them are muslim or have grown up in muslim countries, or belong to the muslim culture! It would be the same as me ranting about the Dalai Lama (I'm not a buddhist, I don't live in Tibet).

Then again, Maiden Forever has one valid point. It has become increasingly dangerous to even mention the word muslim in any context. Last sunday I went to church and an old priest was commenting briefly on the philosophies of each world religion. When he came to Islam he paused and said: It has become almost dangerous to say anything about the Islamic religion, even if you don't mean it in a negative way. He then continued to say how the muslims say 'Inshallah' (spelling?), which means 'God's will'. In this Maiden Forever is right. Extremist muslims are scaring people in the west to such an extent where we bow and scrape and promise not to critisize anything muslim. A good example is the Pope. He was holding a LECTURE at a university, and quoting from a MEDIEVAL text written by the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus, and his point was that holy war is not a good thing and contrary to a sura (chapter) in the Quran. Immediately the Islamic world flares up and everything is blown out of proportion. What happened to freedom of speech?

Finally, back to Iron Maiden. Maiden Forever, you say you are an old fan of Maiden. I suppose you know how old they must be? Old age is not the time for blind rage, and I believe Maiden have matured beyond the point of being angry at everything and everyone. They are older and wiser as the saying goes.
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Natalie said:
Iron Maiden is a western band, at least one of their members is christian, and their cultural background is that of the average European. Therefore, they are justified in critisizing 'white man' and the catholic church because it is part of their culture. They are not justified in critisizing muslims the way they do the catholic church because...none of them are muslim or have grown up in muslim countries, or belong to the muslim culture! It would be the same as me ranting about the Dalai Lama (I'm not a buddhist, I don't live in Tibet).

What a nonsense. Because I don't live in country "B", I am not allowed to express citicism on fundamentalistic ideas? Who made that rule? Well, I respect ANY kind of lyrics vs fundamentalistic ideas, coming from whatever culture, or growing out of whatever religion. It shows we are not blind for dangers. Fundamentalists don't stay in country "B", they are in the whole world. Look at the terror in Madrid, in London, the murder on Theo van Gogh in the Netherlands.

I don't know where people come from, when they agree with this rule, but they probably have a very "clean" society with no influences from other countries and they think they have nothing to do with any problems of fundamentalists.
Now that's what I call naive.

Where I come from (Holland), freedom of speech is one of the most valuable laws in our democracy.

Therefor I am proud that the following lyrics can be written, without any misunderstanding or problems.


Seif al Din  (Sword of the Faith)

The origin of a dogma
Placed in a new millennium
Vilified demons have been embraced
And given a warm welcome

The Seif al Din
Hasn’t got the ghost of a chance to rust
Because it has always been kept in shape
In serving th one Almighty

The rudiments have always been misinterpreted during history,
despite the good intentions of many disciples who’s faithful believe was strong and unswayed.
Most leaders interpret the old words to their
advantage in the attempt of gaining leadership and power
over those unfortunate enough to fall under their maliciousness and manipulative ways.
This misuse of trust will forever stain the pages of history,
echoing the exploitation and the frailty of decent
men carried away by nurtured rancour...

Perpetual distrust fed by a belief
In the malevolence of the others

When the beautiful unreality holds out its hand
It’s better not to lose yourself in blind faith

La Illah Illallah, Mohammed rasul Allah
 

Genghis Khan

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

I see what you're saying, Natalie and Forostar.
Many Muslim's feel that their religion is off topic.  I have heard of some leaders (Imams) discussing religion with Christian leaders as reported on the news.  However, most Muslims that we see in the Middle East do not seem to be encouraged by their government and religious leaders to openly discuss their faith.  (This is true in the West, as well, to some degree but at least here we have freedom of speech).  You are right, Forostar, that we should not be intimidated by radical Islam into silence on the topic of their religion.  I think what Natalie meant was that IM is (presumably) not well learned on Islam so they do not discuss it.  I don't think she meant that we should not discuss it, period.  Your poem/song, Forostar, seems to be written by someone knowledgeable and that is important to put out, to make people think, to show that freedom is alive and well.
I have recently watched a movie called Looking For Comedy in a Muslim World and one of conclusions I drew from the movie is that Muslims (even moderate ones) do not understand the kind of humour we have here in the west.  Literalism? 
So, the question is: how much should we say?  I think that every time the West (the Pope for example) discuss Islam, it would serve us all to have both a non-Muslim and a Muslim there for a dialogue.  This is not always practical, I know.

One more thing... to Maiden Forever
I did not mean to say that you should stop listening to metal music.  I had no right to do that.  Here is what I meant to say, because it is closer to the truth.

Next time you discuss politics or current events with people, please do not tell them that you like Iron Maiden.  If there is a slim chance that I run into the same people you know, I do not want them to associate Iron Maiden with you blind anger.  Thank you.  That is all.
 

Raven

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Genghis Khan said:
I see what you're saying, Natalie and Forostar.
Many Muslim's feel that their religion is off topic.  I have heard of some leaders (Imams) discussing religion with Christian leaders as reported on the news.  However, most Muslims that we see in the Middle East do not seem to be encouraged by their government and religious leaders to openly discuss their faith.  (This is true in the West, as well, to some degree but at least here we have freedom of speech).  You are right, Forostar, that we should not be intimidated by radical Islam into silence on the topic of their religion.  I think what Natalie meant was that IM is (presumably) not well learned on Islam so they do not discuss it.  I don't think she meant that we should not discuss it, period.  Your poem/song, Forostar, seems to be written by someone knowledgeable and that is important to put out, to make people think, to show that freedom is alive and well.

It's Epica's 'Seif al Din'.  I would like to point out at this time that Mark Jansen of Epica has professed a great interest in Eastern Culture and religion, which comes through on his two albums with After Forever and on 'The Phantom Agony'.  Maiden, however, have wartime songs as their forte (with at least 12 songs that I can think of), and most of Maiden's 'religious' songs are quite agnostic and spiritual...just a thought.
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Genghis Khan said:
You are right, Forostar, that we should not be intimidated by radical Islam into silence on the topic of their religion.  I think what Natalie meant was that IM is (presumably) not well learned on Islam so they do not discuss it.  I don't think she meant that we should not discuss it, period..

Alright, I misunderstood it, then.

@ Raven: If Mark Jansen can write such lyrics, then anyone (including Iron Maiden) is allowed or able to get deeper into the subject. We cannot decide for someone else's interest.
 

Natalie

Insect of Terror
Staff member
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Yup, Genghis Khan, that was exactly what I meant. Islam is not Maiden's forte, so why should they critisize it as if it would be? Maybe a better analogy for what I meant would be: a plumber performing brain surgery :blink:. A plumber cannot do brain surgery if he hasn't gone through the appropriate education. We should inform ourselves on a subject before critisizing it, if you know what I mean. Make any sense? I hope it does, I didn't mean to confuse people! :(
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Natalie said:
Yup, Genghis Khan, that was exactly what I meant. Islam is not Maiden's forte, so why should they critisize it as if it would be? Maybe a better analogy for what I meant would be: a plumber performing brain surgery :blink:. A plumber cannot do brain surgery if he hasn't gone through the appropriate education. We should inform ourselves on a subject before critisizing it, if you know what I mean. Make any sense? I hope it does, I didn't mean to confuse people! :(

I understand it, but I don't completely agree. You never know in what subject(s) an artist is interested in or may get interested in, in the future.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

I just love the guitar climax near the end, mind-blowing work by their part.  Reminisses of Alexander the Great and To Tame a Land come to mind a lot when listening to the music.  Lyrically-wise this particular one reminds me of Sign of the Cross among others on the X Factor.  Interesting to see that in the end the whole song is just a question.  Definately one of the best songs Maiden ever churned out, Steve Harris's musical and lyrical genius never ceases to impress me.

Off topic a bit here but, to me, this is their best album yet.  Your thoughts?
 

Belenor

Trooper
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Mr. St-Cyr said:
Off topic a bit here but, to me, this is their best album yet.  Your thoughts?

I think it is quite soon to judge the album properly. And yes, it is off topic :) I've tried to search for a topic like "The best album" and found none so maybe a good time to start one? Well, in fact, I am not sure I am able to choose one anyway :)

To others: well, it seems people tend to criticize things they know nothing or not much of. But this will never change and the critisised should tell the critics that they are wrong. But I'm afraid I don't hear much from Islamists and even when they say something nobody listens. Most people see only the bad. I'm happy that Maiden did not fall to simple accusations of Islam (or other religion).
 

Genghis Khan

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Forostar said:
@ Raven: If Mark Jansen can write such lyrics, then anyone (including Iron Maiden) is allowed or able to get deeper into the subject. We cannot decide for someone else's interest.

I agree.  Only Maiden band members should decide whether to write a specific song about Islam.  Personally, I would be delighted to hear something about the past and current state of the religion.  I think a Harris/Smith duo writing on this dream song could work very well.  The guys do their research well, as I understand it.  (Well there is that matter of "dinosaurs roaming the earth" while man was seeking fire but that is another issue  :) ).
 

Raven

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Forostar said:
@ Raven: If Mark Jansen can write such lyrics, then anyone (including Iron Maiden) is allowed or able to get deeper into the subject. We cannot decide for someone else's interest.

What I mean is, Mark Jansen seems to have studied the subject of Islam deeply for 'The Phantom Agony'.  Why should Maiden, therefore, scrutinise over one particular issue when they can easily address all sides of the coin (so to speak) with lyrics that they know won't be misinformed?  Sometimes amibiguity is better than trying to make out that you know more about a topic than you actually do.
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Raven said:
What I mean is, Mark Jansen seems to have studied the subject of Islam deeply for 'The Phantom Agony'.  Why should Maiden, therefore, scrutinise over one particular issue when they can easily address all sides of the coin (so to speak) with lyrics that they know won't be misinformed?  Sometimes amibiguity is better than trying to make out that you know more about a topic than you actually do.

Most important thing I meant was that it doesn't matter where one comes from. Anyone *can* get into any subject.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

I am a lutheran-evangelical priest, and surely feels that "The Greater Good of God", really
touches upon some important questions that people have asked themselves at all times in history;

Why all the suffering in the world. Will the good in men prevail in the end, or will the evil and the devil
win?

Why have so many people done so many bad things in the name of religion?

Are all these things done "for the greater good of god?"

I feel he’s somewhere here
Or looking from below
But I don’t know, I don’t know

Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is


comment: Yeah, it all seems unfair. Where is God to intervene? Does he even exist, allowing evil to happen, when he
assumably is omnipotent. (almighty)
Am I praying in vain, or is it true that the good will win in the end.
The christian faith clearly states that there is hope that Christ will return and everything shall be changed. All evil will perish and the faithful will live on forever.
Paul tells us that if it is meant for us to suffer, then how much greater will the joy be when history comes to an end.
All of God's creation is sighing in yearning for the Day of the Lord.


More pain and misery in the history of mankind
Sometimes it seems more like
The blind leading the blind
It brings upon us more famine, death and war
You know religion has a lot to answer for


Comment: Surely, any form of religion has a lot to answer for over God. Even I struggle to come to terms of peace, when we see our world threatened by Islamic terrorist, or terrorist threatening Israel (although Israel are indeed guilty parties as well, unfortunately).

The list of sins are huge: Now, don't come ranting on about the Inquisition, although it was bad, it wasn't THAT bad,. I wrote a paper on the issue....
No, war of religions and the history of Europe and the world is a bloody affair.
Imagine, Europe suffered wars for 30 years from 1618-1648, when trying to settle borders of
German evangelics and catholics. And even Lutherans assumably persecuted mennonites who then fled to the North of America.
Evangelicals where supressed in Bohemia in the times of Jan Hus. Whitches were burnt at stakes in the name of God.

A monkey in a dress, former alcoholic and drug-addict, supported by money, God and his almighty Father,
protects the world from the Evil Terrorist, who themselves are convinced to be following the will of God.

And the tale goes on and on....


He gave his life for us
He fell upon the cross
To die for all of those
who never mourn his loss
It wasn’t meant for us
to feel the pain again
Tell me why, tell me why



comment:
I'll tell you why 'Arry. Nicko can as well.
To defeat all evil powers, Jesus had to taste the taste of death. He had to suffer for the sake of all
our mistakes and twisted nature.
It wasn't meant for us to feel pain again.
No, true. But the devil is given a thousand years, before the end nears and everything comes to a close.
Now, the devil and all his demons are given a party, but why all the suffering God?
Why must we feel the pain again and again?


All healthy questions. All questions will be answered in good time.
Inbetween: Enjoy!
 

Genghis Khan

Ancient Mariner
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Godservant said:
I am a lutheran-evangelical priest

I'd hate to sound like some dumb stereotyping youth... but I've never actually considered the possibility of a priest liking IM.  That's cool!  B)

Godservant said:
The list of sins are huge: Now, don't come ranting on about the Inquisition, although it was bad, it wasn't THAT bad,. I wrote a paper on the issue....
No, war of religions and the history of Europe and the world is a bloody affair.

It wasn't THAT bad, eh?  Well, if you were a heretic (Gnostic, etc.), a Jew, a "witch", an excommunicated priest or from Montesur (thanks IM) you would probably disagree.  :p
The last sentence in this quote would make a great lyric for an IM song, IMHO.

Godservant said:
A monkey in a dress, former alcoholic and drug-addict, supported by money, God and his almighty Father,
protects the world from the Evil Terrorist, who themselves are convinced to be following the will of God.

:bigsmile:  Nice way of putting it.  It is hard to tell these days who is terrorizing the world more.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: 'For The Greater Good Of God'

Djengis: Sure, it was all bad. Just throwing the irony aboot!


And, for the record: I meant to say a monkey in a suit and pilot's jacket, forgot that dress is something women wear.

My written English is a bit weaker than my spoken one.
Spent 1 semester in Toronto the Good- studying at Emmanuel College, and Trinity College!
I thoroughly enjoyed Canada, and can't wait to return.

My relatives live in both Toronto, Kitchener and Red Deer, Alberta.
So, Canada rocks!  B)
 
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