European Politics

[Perun]

You cannot imprison a whole country, nor you shouldn't.

How and in which way did I say that? I said the people who vote are accountable, and those who vote Fascists are accountable for voting Fascists. That means, right now, 16% of the German population, not the entire country of Germany.

Your words sound nicely but lack of depth. You cannot held accountable a people, this would open the doors of hell for exterminations of whole countries, don't you realise it?

You don't understand what I'm saying. You don't understand the word "accountability". "To be held accountable" does not mean "to be punished". It means recognising what happens to someone when they made a choice to be a consequence of their choice and it means they don't get to shift the blame on someone else when the consequences of their choice are negative. Which, in turn, means they should think about their choice before making it.

And I'm not saying that "a people" should be held accountable, but that "people" should be held accountable. If 16% of a voting population votes for Fascists, that means those 16% are accountable for voting for Fascists, not the entirety of the voting population or the nation.

Now to be fair, the line I was responding to was "Besides is grave mistake to blame a people." -- but nobody here blamed a people. 16% of voters aren't a people, they are 16% of the voting population of a people.

 

[Vaenyr]

We know exactly why people vote for far right parties. It's not like the voters are shy about their views. Some are doing so out of protest against their current governments (though that number is much smaller than people like to pretend), others do so because of xenophobia and racism. Others again because they fell for populist lies. There's nothing arcane or vague about the current situation. For the AFD for example we have recordings and leaks where they openly talk about their "remigration" plans and how they want to get rid of all the "undesirables". And as I said before, ignorance doesn't absolve anyone. Just because Hans and Otto didn't know any better, doesn't change the fact that they voted for neonazis. This pivot away from the actual results isn't helping anyone and only serves to muddy the waters.

As far as the alleged hyperfixation on the far right: the right wing is part of the political spectrum and even if I disagree with them, they are necessary for the system's balance. The far right on the other hand is on the rise world wide and responsible for extremist attacks. Of course it's more important to actually talk about literal fascists, especially when center-right parties keep shifting further to the right as well. This isn't about "clickbait" or other similar accusations, this is about the future of us all.

 

[____no5]

Now to be fair, the line I was responding to was "Besides is grave mistake to blame a people."

Exactly.
On the other thing about accountability, you are right. My understanding of accountability is that except "recognising what happens" it has tangible consequences or some form of punishment. In a working environment you can loose your job, position, bonus etc. In politics people wouldn't vote for you or there is legal action against you.
Under my understanding of accountability I don't see how any percentage of people could be held accountable about their choice. By extension when this percentage is the majority "the" people becomes "a" people.

Anyway. In Democracy we better analyze why that happened, correct our mistakes and communication instead of blaming the voters. Decades ago we would expect dissatisfied waves to have moved to the left. Why all those voters didn't move to the left or far left?
Those are the questions we should try to answer and if we choose not to, we'll continue to live in our bubbles.

Hold someone accountable for something
To make someone responsible for what they do and demand a satisfactory reason for it:
It is important to hold schools accountable for the performance of all their students.
They want him to be held accountable for what he has done.

Accountable
If you are accountable to someone for something that you do, you are responsible for it and must be prepared to justify your actions to that person.
Public officials can finally be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Diesel 11]

What about the Americans who voted Bush in 2000? Their mistake was paid by half a million Iraqi children dead.

Yes but back in 2000 people didn’t know that 9/11 was going to occur, that Iraq would be blamed for it, and that the war there was going to drag out forever and turn the country upside down.

However, we do know what the far-right wants to do if they get the ability to. Some of us just don’t want to read past the lies.

 

[____no5]

Left parties will be united in France for coming snap elections without Macron. Best thing is that Macron initiated the idea of anti Le Pen coalition hoping to be leading it, except that he freaked everyone out including the traditional right. He is living in his fantasy world not realising how loathed he is inside France.

For the moment polls shows Le Pen still leading but the united left is very close behind. Can't remember if there was any other time that left got united in France in such way. Definitely a step towards the right direction.

French left agrees to form new 'Popular Front' in parliamentary elections

The French left, including the Greens and radical left Jean-Luc Mélenchon's La France Insoumise, agreed to form a coalition on Monday evening. But the question remains as to who will lead the alliance into the battle of the snap elections called by President Macron.

www.lemonde.fr

Newly United, French Left Hopes to Counter President in Upcoming Vote (Published 2022)

Left-wing parties have joined forces ahead of France’s two-stage parliamentary elections, hoping to revive their fortunes and put a brake on President Emmanuel Macron’s agenda.

www.nytimes.com

 

[GhostofCain]

Left parties will be united in France for coming snap elections without Macron. Best thing is that Macron initiated the idea of anti Le Pen coalition hoping to be leading it, except that he freaked everyone out including the traditional right. He is living in his fantasy world not realising how loathed he is inside France.

For the moment polls shows Le Pen still leading but the united left is very close behind. Can't remember if there was any other time that left got united in France in such way. Definitely a step towards the right direction.

French left agrees to form new 'Popular Front' in parliamentary elections

The French left, including the Greens and radical left Jean-Luc Mélenchon's La France Insoumise, agreed to form a coalition on Monday evening. But the question remains as to who will lead the alliance into the battle of the snap elections called by President Macron.

www.lemonde.fr

Newly United, French Left Hopes to Counter President in Upcoming Vote (Published 2022)

Left-wing parties have joined forces ahead of France’s two-stage parliamentary elections, hoping to revive their fortunes and put a brake on President Emmanuel Macron’s agenda.

www.nytimes.com

Let’s hope it works and the fascists do not win.

 

[____no5]

Well, in a way it’s a win already.

 

[GhostofCain]

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how the kids of immigrants sometimes end up being the most xenophobic politicians of all. We have our examples here in the UK (Priti Patel, Suella Braverman) and today I have learnt that the French far-right leader’s is of Italian and Algerian origin!

You cannot make these things up. Talk about first class hypocrisy!

 

[____no5]

It shouldn't amaze you. This is in human nature. Coming from poor classes doesn't make you left. I've lived in immigrant neighborhoods and saw how many established immigrants loath the new comers.

 

[LooseCannon]

The urge to pull the ladder up after one's self is universal, it seems.

 

[TheMercenary]

[...] others do so because of xenophobia and racism. [...]

Today in France it's because of xenophobia, racism, poorsphobia (they say people who are unemployed are responsible for that and their poverty because they don't want to work) and LGBTIQA+phobia (especially oriented on transgendered and intersex people). So, we can simply say it's because of hatred, that's as simple.

 

[TheMercenary]

Can't remember if there was any other time that left got united in France in such way. Definitely a step towards the right direction.

In 1936. And also in 2002.

 

[Vaenyr]

Today in France it's because of xenophobia, racism, poorsphobia (they say people who are unemployed are responsible for that and their poverty because they don't want to work) and LGBTIQA+phobia (especially oriented on transgendered and intersex people). So, we can simply say it's because of hatred, that's as simple.

Yeah, bigotry has many faces and all of them are ugly. Things are getting worse with each passing year and I have no idea how we're supposed to overcome this.

 

[Jer]

Yeah, bigotry has many faces and all of them are ugly. Things are getting worse with each passing year

Starting in which year, then? There are always some assholes out there, but how is bigotry toward the average marginalized person any worse now than it was 5, 10, 20, or 30 years ago? I don’t understand this argument.

Yes, social media amplifies the most extreme voices. Yes, public figures are getting away with saying things today that wouldn’t have been acceptable maybe 5-10 years ago; but at the same time we’re constantly being told that a slew of new things are apparently no longer acceptable to say, often at a fairly ridiculous pace. And while the comments of public figures matter, it’s people’s day-to-day lived experience that matters more.

Are you actually saying life is worse for marginalized people today in general vs. how it was in the past? Really?

 

[Vaenyr]

Yes, social media amplifies the most extreme voices. Yes, public figures are getting away with saying things today that wouldn’t have been acceptable maybe 5-10 years ago; but at the same time we’re constantly being told that a slew of new things are apparently no longer acceptable to say, often at a fairly ridiculous pace. And while the comments of public figures matter, it’s people’s day-to-day lived experience that matters more.

Not gonna touch this nonsensical bullshit, I have no patience for this pathetic self-victimization.

Are you actually saying life is worse for marginalized people today in general vs. how it was in the past? Really?

On average things have obviously gotten better, depending on where you are. But you can't argue with a straight face that the last decade hasn't seen extremism and radicalization rise in Western countries. You have countries like the UK actively trying to take away lifesaving healthcare for trans individuals. Every year sees hate crimes against LGBTQ individuals increasing while multiple governments world wide fuel the extremism because it's part of their culture wars. If you don't see these simple facts there's nothing to discuss, so feel free to find someone else to argue with. I won't entertain such foolish notions as doubting that there is genuine bigotry on the rise in 20-fucking-24.

 

[Jer]

I have no patience for this pathetic self-victimization.

Well, that makes two of us. At least you’re not being condescending or snotty about it!

On average things have obviously gotten better, depending on where you are.

Yep.

Every year sees hate crimes against LGBTQ individuals

This is a true statement, but it doesn’t say much. Is the number escalating, or are you just saying it continues to be non-zero, which it probably always will be, because there will always be assholes out there?

I won't entertain such foolish notions as doubting that there is genuine bigotry on the rise in 20-fucking-24.

Is it actually on the rise, or is it just being shared more shamelessly in public?

Also, thanks for jumping straight to the name calling the moment you hear something that doesn’t completely adhere to your personal dogma — it’s a great look and makes you seem totally reasonable!

 

[Vaenyr]

As I said, I have no patience for your whining, so say hello to the ignore list so that we can be done with it

Also, not all opinions and beliefs deserve serious discussion. Just as I won't entertain the obvious falsehoods and idiocy of a flat earther, I'm not gonna debate the objectively verifiable facts of bigotry rising in the last 10 years. I don't have sympathy for people who lament that they can't use offensive language anymore, as I said, feel free to argue with someone else. Also, funny how you didn't even touch the fact that multiple countries are attacking the rights of marginalized communities. I guess crying that we can't say the n-word anymore is much more important, right?

And for the record, I've given you multiple chances after your weird anti-trans comments and we've butted head plenty of times before. This isn't about being "cool" or "superior" (seriously, could you be any more childish? lmao), this is about realizing that there's no point in engaging. It also helps that we won't derail threads anymore.

 

[Jer]

As I said, I have no patience for your whining, so say hello to the ignore list so that we can be done with it

Wow, you’re so cool and superior. What on earth was I thinking…?

 

[Jer]

Also, not all opinions and beliefs deserve serious discussion.

Yes, based on your posts apparently any opinion or belief that deviates from your own is undeserving.

Just as I won't entertain the obvious falsehoods and idiocy of a flat earther

And how does a comparison this absurd help your credibility?

I'm not gonna debate the objectively verifiable facts of bigotry rising in the last 10 years.

Clearly, since you didn’t even offer up any of these facts.

I don't have sympathy for people who lament that they can't use offensive language anymore

Which I didn’t do, though I do take issue with some inoffensive or objectively true things being labeled as offensive by a very fragile few. Free speech and the “right” of every person to live offense-free are incompatible concepts.

Also, funny how you didn't even touch the fact that multiple countries are attacking the rights of marginalized communities.

Neither did you, until this completely over-the-top parting shot. I would have been happy to discuss it if you didn’t feel I was beneath your notice for not already agreeing with you across the board.

I guess crying that we can't say the n-word anymore is much more important, right?

Never said anything of the sort, and your insinuating that I did speaks volumes about who you are as a person.

 

[LooseCannon]

FBI’s Annual Crime Report — Amid State of Emergency, Anti-LGBTQ+ Hate Crimes Hit Staggering Record Highs

Attacks Based on Gender Identity Up 32.9% from Prior Year, Those Based on Sexual Orientation Up 13.8%; Race & Ethnicity-Based Hate Crimes Remain Largest Category

www.hrc.org

Some highlights:

Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) released its annual crime report for 2022 showing that anti-LGBTQ+ hate crimes were up sharply from the prior year, with a 13.8% increase in reports based on sexual orientation and a shocking 32.9% jump in reported hate crimes based on gender identity.

More than 1 in 5 of any type of hate crime is now motivated by anti-LGBTQ+ bias, and HRC in recent years has been tracking a horrifying wave of fatal violence against transgender people, especially Black transgender women.