European Politics
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GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
Is there another possible way of viewing people who vote for openly xenophobic far right parties?
There might be, but I am struggling to find it.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Voters aren't trying to tell shit, pardon the language. People who voted for the AFD (a literal far right party) were polled and many of them are voting for them specifically because they are far right. I'm sorry, but voting for neo-nazis is not a "protest vote" anymore. These rationalizations don't align with what the voters are actually saying. Turns out far too many are falling for populism and xenophobic lies and the scary thing is that young voters have fallen for their crap as well.
Just like always when it's about elections: The majority of people aren't really well-informed about current politics and simply vote for the party that they've always voted for, or the one that promises the easiest answers to complex problems, regardless of those not being realistic in any way.
Just like always when it's about elections: The majority of people aren't really well-informed about current politics and simply vote for the party that they've always voted for, or the one that promises the easiest answers to complex problems, regardless of those not being realistic in any way.
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____no5
Free Man
Wrong. We should try to see what push them there, or we will never learn. It didn’t just happen, those same people voted otherwise 4 years before.
Besides is grave mistake to blame a people.
TheMercenary
Ancient Mariner
For me, people who voted for right and far-right parties have been perfectly described by this band.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
If you vote for a xenophobic right wing party you are endorsing those views. They could well have changed their views in 4 years and turned into racist scum.
Fascism and racism should never be whitewashed or justified.
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TheMercenary
Ancient Mariner
Here in France it's more because of racist, xenophobic, poorphobic and transphobic reasons that people voted for right and far-right parties.
____no5
Free Man
So what we should do to Israeli people who largely support this monster then?
Think deeper. Can never blame the people. Those who voted Le Pen today voted for Macron yesterday.
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GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
I have always been against the death penalty...
Yes, and a lot of people who had not voted Nazi before voted for Adolf Hitler in the 1930s. We can try and understand why and learn from it, but that does not make what they did more acceptable.
At the end of the day, regardless of the reasons why they might have changed their vote (if they indeed have), they are endorsing despicable views. The fact that they are doing this when so much is known about the atrocities committed in the name of those ideas is even more shocking. Doing that so shortly after the 80th anniversary of D-day landings adds insult to injury.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
I get the point you're making no5, and I agree with it to an extent as there is always a sociological aspect at play at the larger scale, but there is always an element of personal responsibility. We are thinking, sentient beings, and personal responsibility is part of the contract.
Spaldy
Ancient Mariner
If it's any consolation, Britain will likely vote centre-left next month. Partly in response to an increasingly right-wing government that has no answers.
The people in France etc may vote for fascists today but they'll quickly figure out that they have nothing to offer but lies and fear.
The people in France etc may vote for fascists today but they'll quickly figure out that they have nothing to offer but lies and fear.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Not only that, we are mostly talking about adult human beings. Infantilizing them and pretending they are not responsible for their actions and their votes is naive at best and misleading or disingenuous at worst.
Again, I can't talk too much about other countries but I can comment on Germany since it's the country I'm living in and the one I'm familiar with the most, there are large parts who vote for the AFD because of their far right views. Nationalism is on the rise and there have been multiple scandals, both from politicians, but also from young voters, where extremely racist and xenophobic sentiments were shared. We've seen multiple Nazi slogans from 80 years ago on flags and shirts at AFD rallies.
Hell, at the end of June there was supposed to be the party convention of the AFD in the city of Essen. A few days ago the city dissolved the contract, because they gave the party the condition that the convention can only be held if the AFD will get their people under control. They would need to keep them from repeating illegal fascistic Nazi slogans and if they failed they'd have to pay fines. The AFD couldn't even agree on something like that and refused to sign, which lead to the contract being dissolved.
They are a deeply undemocratic party and they, as well as many of their voters, want people like me out of their country. I was born in Germany, raised here, work here, pay my taxes here, but I'm still not "German" enough for those troglodytes so if it were up to them they'd get rid of me, my family, and everyone else who is like us. So, no, the majority of far right voters don't have legitimate reasons for the way they are voting. They aren't voting for legislation that would address the issues everyone is facing. They are just pointing the finger at the "evil foreigners" or whatever and drum up hatred and fear. I'm sick of this BS.
Again, I can't talk too much about other countries but I can comment on Germany since it's the country I'm living in and the one I'm familiar with the most, there are large parts who vote for the AFD because of their far right views. Nationalism is on the rise and there have been multiple scandals, both from politicians, but also from young voters, where extremely racist and xenophobic sentiments were shared. We've seen multiple Nazi slogans from 80 years ago on flags and shirts at AFD rallies.
Hell, at the end of June there was supposed to be the party convention of the AFD in the city of Essen. A few days ago the city dissolved the contract, because they gave the party the condition that the convention can only be held if the AFD will get their people under control. They would need to keep them from repeating illegal fascistic Nazi slogans and if they failed they'd have to pay fines. The AFD couldn't even agree on something like that and refused to sign, which lead to the contract being dissolved.
They are a deeply undemocratic party and they, as well as many of their voters, want people like me out of their country. I was born in Germany, raised here, work here, pay my taxes here, but I'm still not "German" enough for those troglodytes so if it were up to them they'd get rid of me, my family, and everyone else who is like us. So, no, the majority of far right voters don't have legitimate reasons for the way they are voting. They aren't voting for legislation that would address the issues everyone is facing. They are just pointing the finger at the "evil foreigners" or whatever and drum up hatred and fear. I'm sick of this BS.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Also, for the sake of fairness and pragmatism, we can discuss if the general voter is fully aware of the consequences and implications of their vote. I can definitely agree that many people might vote for a party, without being 100% sure about potentially problematic leanings of that party. I can also agree that we need better education as far as civics and politics are concerned. But the sad part about all of this is, regardless if one knows that they're voting for harmful ideologies or not, the damage is done. "I didn't know" is a weak excuse when we're talking about decisions that affect the lives of millions.
I can recognize that there are people out there who are manipulated and fall for deception. At the same time we have to come to terms with the fact that there are also people who willingly vote for fascists because they themselves agree with those ideas. I will not pretend that all the racists have legitimate grievances that deserve to be discussed, when those can often be boiled down to "let's get rid of foreigners".
I can recognize that there are people out there who are manipulated and fall for deception. At the same time we have to come to terms with the fact that there are also people who willingly vote for fascists because they themselves agree with those ideas. I will not pretend that all the racists have legitimate grievances that deserve to be discussed, when those can often be boiled down to "let's get rid of foreigners".
I hate to say this, but I agree with no5. It is incredibly important to understand why people are voting the way they are, because as much as polls might say that people are voting AfD because they are actually fascists, AfD isn't the only party out there. There's a reason these parties are growing, and the only way to stop it is to make connections among the people susceptible to the messages being thrown out and work to show those people that everything the right is promising is a lie.
Most people are not well educated on politics. In Europe, the machinations of the EU are the furthest away from the average person, which suggests to me that they likely are the least understood by Average Joe/Jean/Hans/Giuseppe. This is a big problem.
Fascists sell simple solutions (that will not work) to complex problems. And people want to think their complex problems have simple solutions.
Most people are not well educated on politics. In Europe, the machinations of the EU are the furthest away from the average person, which suggests to me that they likely are the least understood by Average Joe/Jean/Hans/Giuseppe. This is a big problem.
Fascists sell simple solutions (that will not work) to complex problems. And people want to think their complex problems have simple solutions.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Of course it's important to understand why in order to combat it, but it doesn't relieve people of the responsibility for the choices they make. The people that voted tor the Nazis in the 1930s are far from without guilt. Sure, they were lied to, the restitution France forced upon Germany after WWI aided in creating conditions where people looked for a scapegoat. But there is still a personal responsibility, and if you vote for, or campaign for parties that want to disassemble democracy, throw people out of the country and to make life shit for lots of people then you are to some extent an ass.
The far-right are experts at using social media to garner voters and frankly, to radicalize. It's their main advantage and the traditional parties are years and years late to the party. There is an aura of coolness associated with far-right parties, and they are planting a culture of being winners - and who don't want to be with the cool winners? The far-right party is the biggest party amongst teenagers in Sweden in large part because of that social media presence and the culture of cool (and the fact that children tend to inherit and learn their parent's world view).
The far-right are experts at using social media to garner voters and frankly, to radicalize. It's their main advantage and the traditional parties are years and years late to the party. There is an aura of coolness associated with far-right parties, and they are planting a culture of being winners - and who don't want to be with the cool winners? The far-right party is the biggest party amongst teenagers in Sweden in large part because of that social media presence and the culture of cool (and the fact that children tend to inherit and learn their parent's world view).
Bullshit. The people who vote are 100% accountable for what they do, that's why they give voting rights to adults. They may not be to blame for the problems they are facing in their lives, but they are to blame for being ignorant of the true intentions of the people they vote for, if they really are ignorant. It's not like AFD are in any way hiding their intentions; we know they want to deport migrants, and we know they are on Putin's payroll.
Democracy is built on the accountability of each individual. Arguing away that accountability is a paternalistic move - it turns the people into children who don't know what they are doing, and that opens the door for dictatorship.
And let's fucking get real. The problems of the people voting for AFD are not so gargantuan that only a Fascist party can be believed to solve them. This isn't 1933, there are no six million people living on the streets begging for food. A lot of these people are ignorants, NIMBYs and people who feel it is absolutely unreasonable to ask of them to do things like accept that there is a brown person with a headscarf living in their street, or to wear a face mask so some other person won't die of the germs they exhale from that stinking hole in their faces. Yes, some people have real problems and lost hope in the political establishment to solve them. But a lot of them are also dicks, plain and simple. And I'm fucking tired of pretending it's otherwise.
____no5
Free Man
You cannot imprison a whole country, nor you should. Where is the accountability for people of Israel who by large majority support what's happening in Gaza? And how could we held them accountable exactly even if we wanted to?
What about the Americans who voted Bush in 2000? Their mistake was paid by half a million Iraqi children dead.
Or the American voters who are requested to choose between Biden, Kennedy and Trump? Whatever they choose it sucks, about what accountability are we talking about?
Your words sound nice on the surface but lack of depth. You cannot held accountable a people, this would open the doors of hell for exterminations of whole countries, don't you realise it?
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I'm in the U.S. so it's none of my business, however I found this observation by Katka Adler (BBC) interesting - particularly the last 2 sentences.
A final thought: When trying to make firm predictions about the kind of power the nationalist right will, or will not, exert in the EU going forward, labels are often not that helpful.
Some hard-right nationalists are becoming more mainstream to woo more voters and increasing numbers of centre-right politicians have been aping the language of the far right on hot button issues like migration and the environment, in an attempt to hold on to supporters.
Overall, the centre-right won the largest number of seats and made the biggest number of gains in the European Parliament.
You might not see that headline all that often though. It’s less eye-catching than a debate about far-right gains.
A final thought: When trying to make firm predictions about the kind of power the nationalist right will, or will not, exert in the EU going forward, labels are often not that helpful.
Some hard-right nationalists are becoming more mainstream to woo more voters and increasing numbers of centre-right politicians have been aping the language of the far right on hot button issues like migration and the environment, in an attempt to hold on to supporters.
Overall, the centre-right won the largest number of seats and made the biggest number of gains in the European Parliament.
You might not see that headline all that often though. It’s less eye-catching than a debate about far-right gains.