European Politics

The city always had a troubling history. ;)

The city was founded in 1869 by a Welsh businessman, John Hughes, who constructed a steel plant and several coal mines in the region; the town was thus named Yuzovka (Юзовка) in recognition of his role in its founding ("Yuz" being a Russian or Ukrainian approximation of Hughes). During Soviet times, the city's steel industry was expanded. In 1924 it was renamed Stalino (Сталино), and in 1932 the city became the centre of the Donetsk region.

And it's funny because it's true ;)
Stupid nationalists fighting about their sacred lands and cities that weren't even built by them. Pretty standard stuff for Slavic populated countries.

About recent East Ukraine news, this is getting bad. Really bad.
Russia claims that Kiev hired 150 Blackwater mercenaries operating under Ukranian special forces flag.
Ukraine had every right to intervene against armed threat to their local governments. But Ukraine had no right to wipe out Russian language as constitutional.

@Rotam, so you presume we'll have World War in 2039 fought with sticks?
 
And it's funny because it's true ;)
Stupid nationalists fighting about their sacred lands and cities that weren't even built by them. Pretty standard stuff for Slavic populated countries.

About recent East Ukraine news, this is getting bad. Really bad.
Russia claims that Kiev hired 150 Blackwater mercenaries operating under Ukranian special forces flag.
Ukraine had every right to intervene against armed threat to their local governments. But Ukraine had no right to wipe out Russian language as constitutional.

@Rotam, so you presume we'll have World War in 2039 fought with sticks?

2039? Sticks?

I am worried for a World War in 2014 :eek: fought with nukes. :eek: :nuts2::help2:
 
Zare was paraphrasing Einstein: I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
 
I wasn't aware of that Einstein's sentence.

The Ukrainian crisis smells like to something bigger and very dangerous.
 
Video supposedly shows crackdown of Ukranian special police member in Harkov, after he opened fire on pro-Russian protesters.
At 0:44 he says "I'm a U.S. citizen", twice, in what sounds to me like correct U.S. accent (midwest?)


If Kiev government is sending Greystone (mercenery company owned by Blackwater creator, eg. Blackwater) personnel against Russia-aligned Ukranian citizens...wow. Just wow.
On the other hand, they can't do much since their own police forces are denying any action against pro-Russian protesters in Harkov, Donjeck, etc.

Very angry armed people are protesting (eg. anti-police mobs), but the police doesn't want to fight them. I saw numerous videos in last 2 days about wrecking police buses (with staff inside!), and special police actually trying to prevent them, but protesters are outnumbering them 100:1, and police doesn't even want to respond with force. On one occasion, a policeman, in the bus, when he saw that TV camera was shooting, typed "we're with you" on his iPhone and sticked it to the window.
 
To me it doesn't sound like Slavic at all, clean US. But of course it might be a forgery of some sort.
Another interesting piece;

This morning, a sophisticated Russian ‘tourist’ was detected by the border guards of the Chernihiv detachment, together with the customs officers at the Khorobychi [Chernihiv Oblast] checkpoint.
The Russian citizen arrived in Ukraine on the Polotsk-Simferopol train. The inspection discovered he had a number of unusual things with him. The Bryansk Oblast [Russian Federation] resident was carrying two USSR military cards, three signal pistols and 17 cartridges for them, five dismantled cellphones, three gas canisters, and 35 Russian rubles. The most curious thing the checkpoint officers found among the man’s belongings was a schedule of radio call signs.
The Russian citizen was interned in the border detachment for a conversation. It is being clarified where the man was heading, and for what purpose. This has already been reported to the relevant law enforcement authorities.
Source – the State Border Service of Ukraine (dpsu.gov.ua)

http://dpsu.gov.ua/ua/about/news/news_3813.htm
 
This is beyond the point where I argue what's justified and what not, and now I'm only sad.
 
This is beyond the point where I argue what's justified and what not, and now I'm only sad.

Pretty much this.

If the level of mistrust between the Russian-speaking part of the Ukrainian population and the authorities is as bad as the recent protests show, I can hardly see a way forward for Ukraine as a unified nation.

In hindsight, we can say this problem was bound to surface some day. The Soviet policy of moving ethnic Russians to the other Soviet republics, would always pose a problem once the Soviet Union broke up. No government has managed to build a unified Ukrainian society, and the cracks appeared very clearly when the country was in economic trouble.
 
Yippee, just what the world needs .. a People's Republic

=================


Pro-Russia separatists who said they were part of a new “Donetsk People's Republic” in eastern Ukraine appealed on Monday for Russian President Vladimir Putin to help defend them against Ukrainian government forces.

Speaking at a news conference at the headquarters of the city administration of Slovyansk, a separatist leader asked Putin “to personally direct your attention to the unfolding situation and help us as much as you can.”

The plea for help came hours after a Kyiv-set deadline expired under which separatists occupying government building in eastern Ukraine were to disarm or face an assault by Ukrainian security forces.

Meanwhile, President Putin is watching the situation in Ukraine with great concern, his spokesman said on Monday.
 
With Crimea it was stated that they were ethnic-Russian citizens living there that Putin wanted to protect, whereas these are descrbied as pro-Russian, if I understand correctly. If they really like Russia so much though, I would think it more sensible to make an effort to leave Ukraine and move to Russia (or now Crimea) rather than just try and get more and more of the Ukraine slowly absorbed - especially as I doubt that everyone in the city feels the same.

There's nothing really linking Putin to these people at all is there, and so no reason for him to step in other than they asked and said they like him. If my next door neighbour says they are Pro-Russian would they expect Putin to come and aid them?

This whole situation is idiotic, and I really REALLY hope that Putin doesn't answer their plea with anything more than granting them permission to come and live in Russia.
 
Pretty much this.

If the level of mistrust between the Russian-speaking part of the Ukrainian population and the authorities is as bad as the recent protests show, I can hardly see a way forward for Ukraine as a unified nation.

In hindsight, we can say this problem was bound to surface some day. The Soviet policy of moving ethnic Russians to the other Soviet republics, would always pose a problem once the Soviet Union broke up. No government has managed to build a unified Ukrainian society, and the cracks appeared very clearly when the country was in economic trouble.
At least I hope you recognize the difference between Maidan (unarmed protests) and these cities that were taken by force, with weapons. Weapons which came from some place. I am pretty sure Russian agents must have had a hand in this.

What 's happening now is Russian involvement. That is so clear. Question is: do you find that involvement justified or not?

I say to that: hell no. It is not. It is not justified to just take over a part of another nation with weapons. At least not in this situation.
Old Soviet sympathies are not justified. All these excuses for what is happening are not strong enough to call all this justified.

I leave your judgement to yours but there's enough out there to have an opinion about.
 
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Since you quote my post I presume "you" in you post refers to me and not to the thread participants in general. If so, I don't understand where you're coming from. I have not written anything to indicate that I find Russia's actions in eastern Ukraine justified (assuming they are Russians, which seems to be the case).

Of course it's not a spontaneous uprising we're seeing in eastern Ukraine. The execution of these operations looks too professional.

My post, which you quoted, was simply a reflection over the situation - not an attempt to say who is right. But if I am to elaborate it more, I can say this much: It seems evident that tsar Vladimir was more than ready to amplify the tensions in Ukraine in order for Russia (even with soldiers operating under false flag - or more precisely no flag) to gain more control over their neighbour.
 
Good to see some more elaboration.

I wrote it to anyone who read it, but I specifically wanted to find out if people find it justified what the Ukrainian government is doing now.

I think it is good and logical that the Ukrainians took back their own airbase. A little base, but important enough to bring in more forces (or to prevent R to use it).

Until now they've been very careful, and also this operation was very small, and controlled. Now I wonder if (and how) they'll get back other locations (regional government buildings, police stations etc.) and then we'll see if that is enough to give the R an "excuse" to strike back.

P used his troops to "maintain" order in Chechnia. Now he screams out loud that Ukraine cannot do this in their own country.

Acting is dangerous but doing nothing would also be bad. Setting ultimata and not doing anything further certainly would not keep Eastern Ukraine.

EDIT: this looks gloomy but I'm afraid it's not that unrealistic:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/15/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSBREA3E16E20140415

.... But the danger with the crisis in Ukraine is the law of unintended consequences.

If Russia or its proxies were to misjudge the situation and overstep by destabilizing Ukraine on its borders with Poland, Hungary, Romania or Slovakia - all EU and NATO member states - events could easily spiral out of hand.

The same situation pertains to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, the only NATO and EU states that were once part of the Soviet Union itself, and which increasingly feel threatened by Moscow.

Under Article 5 of NATO's treaty, an attack on one member state is deemed an attack on all.

Alliance officials say their mandate limits NATO's reach - it cannot act in Ukraine because Ukraine is not in NATO. Nevertheless, the mandate has proven flexible in the past when Washington and its allies had the political will to act: NATO's three wars of the past generation, in Afghanistan, Kosovo and Bosnia, were all fought outside the territory of its members.

But even if NATO is not prepared to fight for Ukraine, the mutual protection pact means that it could be drawn into a conflict, if a NATO member that borders Ukraine or R were to be attacked or threatened.

While such a scenario appears unlikely, the annexation of Crimea seemed almost equally so three months ago.

What is more, R has doubled its military spending since 2004 while most NATO member states have sharply curtailed theirs as a result of the economic crisis.

NATO's superpower Washington still spends around eight times as much on weapons as Moscow, but many of its European allies would struggle to field a force that would frighten R.

Given the desire to avoid confrontation, NATO will do everything it can to stick to verbal pressure to contain R. Yet that runs the risk of convincing Moscow that NATO is ultimately toothless, a relic of an earlier era.

That in turn could lead to another dangerous scenario. If R or its proxies go too far and Ukraine's army retaliates, a full-on military conflict could erupt in Ukraine, a country of 45 million people as large as France.

At that point, given the threat to Europe's security and the grave risk to so many lives, the EU and NATO may decide there is an overriding humanitarian obligation to intervene, even if military involvement is the last thing they want.

That would in many ways mirror NATO involvement in Bosnia in the early 1990s, which began with monitoring in coordination with the United Nations and steadily grew into combat air operations and the deployment of 60,000 soldiers.

R may be counting on NATO to keep clear. But if history is any guide, a steady escalation in Ukraine runs the risk of sparking events that the West, and by extension NATO, could find it cannot ignore, despite its best intentions. ...

Food for thought:
Russia would pay heavy price for invasion
 
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