European Politics

Even closer to home, the issues in integrating East and West Germany is a good example. Here you have 2 peoples with a common history, language, and a general desire to fully unify being separated for only 50-ish years under two separate economic systems has been a difficult integration.
 
I'm not sure if German reunification can be considered as symptomatic for integration of the former East Bloc to capitalist Europe. I used to like the idea of Germany being a sort of microcosm of the divided world, but I think that's oversimplifying things. The reason reunification has been so costly is that it was handled in a stupid and arrogant manner by former West Germany. Essentially, they approached it with the attitude that everything that East Germany did was wrong, and should thus be wiped away. The consequence was the complete dismantling of East German economy, including many industries that existed before the partition, and a state of desolation that left many people with no option but emigrate to western Germany if they did not want to face unemployment at home. All this has proven too much even for the West to handle, so that you can now by no means use a blanket statement saying that the west is rich and the east is poor. Saxony and Thuringia are not doing much worse than Rhineland-Palatinate or Northrhine-Westphalia, the traditional powerhouse of Germany.

In the same way, each country has handled the fall of Communism differently. Hungary was quick to introduce turbo-capitalism only to run out of steam and experience a miserable fall. Slovakia was desolate at first but is doing pretty well now. You can tell that a place like Estonia, Slovenia, or Slovakia has profited very much from European integration, and thus love the EU, while others in the west, such as Spain or Ireland, were major recipients of European benefits in a more distant past and now end up hating it very much. Still others like The Netherlands or Finland have always been doing well, and have first-world issues with the EU at best.

My point is, I guess, that the EU suffers a lot from its inherent heterogeneity. The motto 'United in Diversity' is unfortunately nowhere close to being realised. There is a lack of vision for an European future that can be transmitted to the average European. Many Germans for instance believe they would be much better off without the EU, and that the EU is limiting the country's economic power. In essence, they believe Germany could face China and the US on its own, but the EU as a whole can't. It is also becoming increasingly difficult to argue why German taxpayers should bail out Greek banks while at home, there is not enough money to keep commuter trains running.
 
The German reunification is not a perfect example. I was mentioning it to point out that given the difficulties it faced, the difficulties would be even more profound for that kind of integration between separate nations. Especially given how the post 1945 borders and expulsions created extremely homogeneous nations. In theory that should be more smooth, even with any mistakes, than trying to unify Belgium and Greece for example or even Austria and Germany for that matter in an economic, much less any kind of political union.

The point about bailing out Greece is a perfect example of why this was rushed and it causing more contention than if they were on their own currency.

I might be embellishing this a bit, but you have Greeks saying "This is the same as 1941 only instead of tanks and planes it is Euros and German demands for reform and we are suffering because of the Germans/the North/the EU"

and I see the Germans saying "They created their own mess, we have our own problems we should be addressing with our own money, let them clean it up so they do not drag us down with them"

Both points have some validity.
 
I have a lot of sympathy for the people of Greece, because they spent many years having their government make them spectacular promises of wealth and security that the country couldn't afford. When Greece joined the Eurozone, it was in no way in the economic condition that most other countries were, but the government pretended it was. The way I understand it, the hope was that once they had the Euro, there would be more economic security to back up whatever the government dreamt of. I suppose that would actually have been the case, and support from the Eurozone would have been much more willing, had the government implemented a responsible spending policy then. But what did they do instead? Olympic Games. Lavish train networks. Spectacular pensions for members of an overblown bureaucracy. Fantastic credits. The government spent money that wasn't theirs, and told the people it was.

Now taxpayer money from all over the Eurozone is being used to bail out Greek banks, but the people don't get bailed out. No wonder they're disgruntled. I can fully understand their rage at Germany, because instead of supporting the people, the German government is supporting the banks that got the Greeks in that shit in the first place. The people of Greece see all the promises they relied on broken, and have to live in misery. And yet, those that made them those promises are being bailed out.
 
bearfan said:
I might be embellishing this a bit, but you have Greeks saying "This is the same as 1941 only instead of tanks and planes it is Euros and German demands for reform and we are suffering because of the Germans/the North/the EU"

and I see the Germans saying "They created their own mess, we have our own problems we should be addressing with our own money, let them clean it up so they do not drag us down with them"

Both points have some validity.
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Thankfully the governments/parliaments of these countries think less extreme.
 
I can fully understand their rage at Germany, because instead of supporting the people, the German government is supporting the banks that got the Greeks in that shit in the first place. The people of Greece see all the promises they relied on broken, and have to live in misery. And yet, those that made them those promises are being bailed out.
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Is it the banks or their government that got them into this mess? The correct answer is probably not just one, but their government and by extension the people electing them and going along with a "eat, drink, and be merry" attitude and screw our future generations attitude should shoulder a good portion of the blame. If anything, they are probably upset that they screwed themselves instead of their grand kids.


Thankfully the governments/parliaments of these countries think less extreme.
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Sure, but if that becomes the prevalent view of the population over time people will be elected that share those views.
 
Greece is not in a situation to act extreme. Then they won't get much help.

Germany is very dependent on saving Greece. They have invested a lot into it.
 
I am not sure the Germans, I am speaking more of the population than the government, would have a serious issue supporting Greece if it were a one time emergency. But my guess is people are clued in that this will be ongoing for some time and quite possibly will expand beyond Greece.

With each bailout the resentment will probably grow ... and I do not think it is helped by having the Greeks complain about conditions set on the bailout funds.

If I were a German taxpaying citizen, at some point, I would have the attitude that they are a bunch of ingrates and we should keep the money at home for the benefit of the German people.

If there were an end in sight, this would not be an issue ... but I tend to think this will be going on for years and at some point someone/party that runs on an anti-Euro/bailout platform will collect more and more votes. I would not be shocked if we see that start to happen in the next round of elections and that the Alternative für Deutschland party gets a decent amount of votes.
 
bearfan said:
If there were an end in sight, this would not be an issue ... but I tend to think this will be going on for years
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Yeah, that's my greatest fear. Nobody knows where this is going.

I would not be shocked if we see that start to happen in the next round of elections and that the Alternative für Deutschland party gets a decent amount of votes.
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They did have 5% in the polls at one point, enough to get them in parliament. Last I heard as 2%, but it looks as though all they need is get the machinery going to collect a good amount of votes. The party consists of vile and slimy creatures that seem to hide most of what they think. Instead, they put out a programme that is difficult to disagree with, because it is so vague. However, from all I have seen and heard from them, increased political influence from that cesspool is a strong reason for me to emigrate. I don't know where on my shortlist of reasons it is, but it's somewhere near the top.
 
I was under the impression from what I have read, which admittedly is not a ton, that at least in part that party was formed from more middle class elements rather than the the normal collection of skinhead like organizations.

But hey, you can always emigrate to Texas .. there is probably a shortage of your skillset here :)
 
Yeah, they're mostly professors, economists and that sort. They're no skinheads or hooligans at all. But that's what makes me mistrust them even more. If educated people from the middle class, academics no less, employ populism of such crude manner, I can't help but think they have more sophisticated, sinister plans in the background.

The University of Texas actually has a department I could work in. It would rock to ride there on my mustang from my ranch every morning, and back home into the sunset. :P
 
Well, if you went to work at UT, you would be close to the biggest German towns in the area (possibly the US) ... just like home .. with plenty of ranches between Austin and Fredericksburg
 
Just trying making sure you have a schnitzel option if you need it :) If not, live closer to San Antonio and go Mexican
 
Ooh, burritos for breakfast, tacos for dinner every day, I could get used to that...
 
Now I am pulling for Alternative für Deutschland to have a good showing, might lead to another semi-local to go to Maiden shows with. We can make the Dallas, Houston, San Antonio or Austin run and have a taco before the show :)
 
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