European Politics

Yeah, I agree. Same with blasphemy laws and such. Of course, for some reason, many European societies are very cautious about Nazis...

Freedom of speech, of course, means different things in different areas of the world, and it is difficult at best to apply the American ideal to other societies.
 
There really are two issues to me, in this case .. the guy is obviously a moron and spouted off some bad things in a drunked/drug induced rampage ... who would have thought knowing how down to earth people in fashion normally are :)  The guy is a public figure, he did something stupid, people truned their backs on him, he'll have this over his head forever and certainly lose money and prestige over it ... that seems enough punishment.


The bigger issue is when this nonsense spews over into the world of ideas, where in the US a proposal for welfare/immigration reform will have the racist label thrown on in and essentially end all rational debate, you'll see a story every once in a while in Europe that will get the Nazi/Fascist label tossed on it, etc.  These laws against speech legitimize shutting down what could be healthy debates. 

IMO, it is time for this nonsense to end, the war is long sense over and in the very near future anyone who had anything to do with it on any side will be dead and gone.
I'll add, I fully understand the reasoning behind these laws and agree the served a purpose for some period of time after the war ended .... I really think the time for those laws is over and it has reached the point where they do more harm than good in a free society.
 
Firstly, I'll note that I tend to agree with you on that laws of this sort are more harm then help in the current era, both in the sense of allowing a marketplace of ideas and in the sense of setting a dangerous precedent for other restrictive speech laws.

However, I think this is a very American-style interpretation of freedom of speech, and that the only people who can pick what sort of laws the French are going to place on their restriction of speech are the French. And if they choose to go that way, that's their business.
 
No argument, France can make their own laws ... however it does make sense for countries to look at other countries and see what works and does not (for the record the US should do this as well in some areas) ...

Also, it seems with the internet and communications that these things are more in the often.  There are generally plenty of non-Americans suggesting what US domestic/international policy should be as well.  I am not anti-Euro.  I have spent a fair amount of time there and hope to spend much more time there in the future.

I am curious as to how these laws are enforced.  Are they just trying to make an example of this guy because he is famous or would they prosecute an unknown person in some local bar making similar comments ... also curious to see if this just is an American point of views on these types of laws or if there is any resistance to them in Europe.
 
That kind of stuff is usually only enforced when media covers the controversial event.
It's also true that if you say "fucking Jew", you'll be declared as both xenophobic and anti-semitic, while if you say, for instance, "fucking Spaniard", you'll turn out as just xenophobic, if even that.

It all depends who is involved, and where it happened.
 
Goran Hadžić is PROBABLY arrested.

Serbian President Tadić has a press conference at 11AM (a little more than an hour from now). Nothing is yet confirmed though, but I hope it's true :edmetal:
 
Excellent.

THE CHARGES:

COUNT 1 (PERSECUTIONS)

From 1 August 1991 until the end of June 1992, Goran HADZIC, acting individually or in concert with other known and unknown members of a joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation, or execution of the persecutions of the Croat and other non-Serb civilian population in the SAO SBWS / RSK.

Throughout this period, Serb forces, comprised of JNA units, local Serb TO units and TO units from Serbia and Montenegro, including paramilitaries/volunteers of the Serbian Volunteer Guard and the Serbian Chetnik Movement, local and Serbian MUP police units, including the SAO SBWS Milicija and the SNB, and paramilitary units, attacked and took control of towns, villages and settlements in the territories described in paragraph 6. After the take-over, Serb forces in co-operation with the local Serb authorities, including Goran HADZIC, established a regime of persecutions designed to drive the Croat and other non-Serb civilian population from these territories.

These persecutions were based on political, racial or religious grounds and included the following:

a. The extermination or murder of hundreds of Croat and other non-Serb civilians, including women and elderly persons, in Dalj, Dalj Planina, Erdut, Erdut Planina, Klisa, Lovas, Grabovac and Vukovar in Croatia, as described in detail in paragraphs 18 to 29.

b. The prolonged and routine imprisonment and confinement of hundreds of Croat and other non-Serb civilians in detention facilities within and outside of Croatia, as described in detail in paragraph 31-33.

c. The establishment and perpetuation of inhumane living conditions for Croat and other non-Serb civilian detainees in the mentioned detention facilities.

d. The repeated torture, beatings and killings of Croat and other non-Serb civilian detainees in the mentioned detention facilities.

e. The prolonged and frequent forced labour of Croat and other non-Serb civilians detained in the mentioned detention facilities or under house arrest in their respective homes in Vukovar, Dalj, Lovas, Erdut and Tovarnik. The forced labour included digging graves, loading ammunition for the Serb forces, digging trenches and other forms of manual labour at the frontlines.

f. The imposition of restrictive and discriminatory measures against the Croat and other non-Serb civilian population, such as restriction of movement; removal from positions of authority in local government institutions and the police; dismissal from jobs; and arbitrary searches of their homes.

g. The beating and robbing of Croat and other non-Serb civilians.

h. The arbitrary arrests, torture and beatings of Croat and other non-Serb civilians during and after their arrest.

i. The deportation or forcible transfer of tens of thousands of Croat and other non-Serb civilians from the territories specified above, including the deportation to Serbia of at least 5,000 inhabitants from Ilok, 20,000 inhabitants from Vukovar; and the forcible transfer to locations within Croatia of at least 2,500 inhabitants from Erdut, as described in detail in paragraphs 35 to 38.

j. The deliberate destruction of homes, other public and private property, cultural institutions, historic monuments and sacred sites of the Croat and other non-Serb population in Vukovar, Erdut, Lovas, Aljmas, Sarengrad, Bapska, Tovarnik, as described in paragraphs 40.

By these acts and omissions, Goran HADZIC committed:

Count 1: Persecutions on political, racial, and religious grounds, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(h) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.


COUNTS 2 to 4
(EXTERMINATION and MURDER)


From 1 August 1991 until the end of June 1992, Goran HADZIC, acting individually or in concert with other known and unknown members of a joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation, or execution of the extermination, murder and wilful killings of Croat and other non-Serb civilians in the SAO SBWS, as specified in paragraphs 19 through 27 of this indictment.

In September and October 1991, the local Serb TO and Milicija of the SAO SBWS arrested Croat civilians and kept them in a detention facility in the police building in Dalj. On 21 September 1991, Goran HADZIC and Zeljko RAZNATOVIC visited the detention facility and ordered the release of two of the detainees. Immediately after, members of the TO of the SAO SBWS led by Zeljko RAZNATOVIC killed eleven detainees and buried their bodies in a mass grave in the village of Celija. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On 4 October 1991, members of the TO of the SAO SBWS led by Zeljko RAZNATOVIC entered the detention facility in the police building in Dalj and beat, tortured, then killed twenty-eight Croat civilian detainees. The bodies of the victims were then taken from the building and dumped into the nearby Danube River. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On 18 October 1991, members of the JNA, the TO of the SAO SBWS, and Dusan Silni volunteer unit forced fifty Croat civilians, who had been detained for forced labour in the Zadruga building in Lovas, to march into a minefield on the outskirts of the village of Lovas, located approximately 20 kilometers south-west of the town of Vukovar. On the way to the minefield, one detainee was shot dead by these Serb forces. Upon reaching the minefield, the detainees were forced to enter the minefield and sweep their feet in front of them to clear the field of mines. At least one mine exploded, and the Serb forces opened fire on the detainees. Twenty-one detainees were killed either through mine explosions or gunfire. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On 9 November 1991, members of the TO of the SAO SBWS led by Zeljko RAZNATOVIC and members of the Milicija of the SAO SBWS arrested ethnic Hungarian and Croat civilians in Erdut, Dalj Planina, and Erdut Planina and took them to the training centre of the TO in Erdut where twelve of them were shot dead the following day. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment. Several days after 9 November 1991, members of the SNB of the SAO SBWS in co-operation with several members of "Arkan’s Tigers" arrested and executed three civilians, two of them family members of the original Hungarian victims who had inquired about the fate of their relatives. The bodies of eight of the initial twelve victims were buried in the village of Celija and one victim was buried in Daljski Atar. The bodies of the three additional victims were thrown into a well in Borovo. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment. On 3 June 1992, members of the SNB, in co-operation with members of "Arkan’s Tigers", arrested Marija Senasi (born 1937), a female family member of the original Hungarian victims who had continued to make inquiries about the fate of her relatives. This woman was subsequently murdered and her body was thrown into an abandoned well in Dalj Planina.

On 11 November 1991, members of the TO of SAO SBWS, under the command of Zeljko RAZNATOVIC, arrested seven non-Serb civilians in the village of Klisa. Two of the detainees who had Serb relatives were released. The remaining five civilians were taken to the TO training centre in Erdut. After their interrogation, the victims were killed and buried in a mass grave in the village of Celija. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On or about 20 November 1991, as part of the overall persecution campaign, Serb forces under the command of the JNA removed approximately two hundred and sixty-four Croats and other non-Serbs from Vukovar Hospital in the aftermath of the Serb take-over of the city. The victims were transported to the JNA barracks and then to the Ovcara farm located about 5 kilometers south of Vukovar. There, Serb forces consisting of JNA soldiers, local Serb TO forces, paramilitaries/volunteers, and other members of the joint criminal enterprise beat and tortured the victims for hours. During the evening of 20 November 1991, these Serb forces transported the victims in groups of 10-20 to a remote execution site between the Ovcara farm and Grabovo, where they shot and killed them. Their bodies were buried in a mass grave. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

Between 18 and 20 November 1991, after the termination of the military operations in and around Vukovar, the JNA assisted by local Serb TO forces, paramilitaries/volunteers, and other members of the joint criminal enterprise deported thousands of Croat and other non-Serb inhabitants into the territory of the Republic of Serbia. Following a request of Goran HADZIC to retain those non-Serbs who were suspected of participation in the military operations, the JNA transported a large number of inhabitants of Vukovar to the detention facilities in Dalj on around 20 November 1991. There, local Serb TO members selected those suspected of participating in the defence of Vukovar. The selected detainees were interrogated, beaten and tortured. At least thirty-five were executed. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On 10 December 1991, members of the TO of the SAO SBWS led by Zeljko RAZNATOVIC and members of the Milicija of the SAO SBWS arrested five non-Serb villagers from Erdut. The victims were taken to the TO training centre in Erdut and subsequently killed. The bodies of three of the victims were later disposed of in a well in Daljski Atar. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

From 22 December 1991 to 25 December 1991, members of the TO of the SAO SBWS led by Zeljko RAZNATOVIC and members of the Milicija of the SAO SBWS arrested seven ethnic Hungarian and Croat civilians in Erdut and took them to the TO training centre in Erdut. On 26 December 1991, they were shot and killed. The bodies of six of the victims were buried in Daljski Atar. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On 21 February 1992, members of the TO of the SAO SBWS led by Zeljko RAZNATOVIC and members of the Milicija of the SAO SBWS arrested four non-Serb civilians in Erdut. All of the victims were interrogated in the Territorial Defence training centre in Erdut and then killed. The bodies of the victims were buried in a mass grave in Daljski Atar. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

On 4 May 1992, members of the special operations component of the DB of the Republic of Serbia arrested five non-Serb civilians in the village of Grabovac. The civilians were taken away and killed. Their bodies were later buried in Tikves Park. The names of the victims are set out in Annex I attached to this indictment.

By these acts and omissions Goran HADZIC committed:

Count 2: Extermination, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(b) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 3: Murder, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(a) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 4: Murder, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.


COUNTS 5 to 9
(IMPRISONMENT, TORTURE, INHUMANE ACTS and CRUEL TREATMENT )


From 1 August 1991 until the end of June 1992, Goran HADZIC, acting individually or in concert with other known and unknown members of a joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation, or execution of the unlawful confinement or imprisonment under inhumane conditions of the Croat and other non-Serb civilian population in the territories listed above.


Serb military forces, comprised of JNA, local Serb TO and paramilitary/volunteer units acting in co-operation with local and Serbian police staff and local Serb authorities and authorities in Serbia, arrested and detained thousands of Croat and other non-Serb civilians in the following short- and long-term detention facilities:

a. STAJICEVO agricultural farm in Serbia run by the JNA, approximately one thousand and seven hundred detainees.

b. Military barracks in Begejci in Serbia run by the JNA, approximately two hundred and sixty detainees.

c. Military barracks in Zrenjanin in Serbia run by the JNA, scores of detainees.

d. Military prison Sremska Mitrovica in Serbia run by the JNA, hundreds of detainees.

e. Military prison in Sid, Serbia run by the JNA, approximately one hundred detainees

f. Police buildings and the hangar near the railway station in Dalj, SAO SBWS, run by the JNA and local Serb TO, hundreds of detainees.

g. Territorial Defence training centre in Erdut, also referred to as "Arkan’s" military base, SAO SBWS, run by members of the local Serb TO and "Arkan’s Tigers", approximately fifty-two detainees.

h. Ovcara farm, near Vukovar, SAO SBWS run by the JNA, approximately three hundred detainees.

i. Velepromet warehouse near Vukovar, SAO SBWS run by the JNA, approximately one hundred detainees.

j. Police station in Opatovac, SAO SBWS run by the JNA, scores of detainees.

k. Stable or workshop in Borovo Selo, SAO SBWS, run by members of the milicija and local Serb TO, approximately eighty detainees.

The living conditions in these detention facilities were brutal and characterised by inhumane treatment, overcrowding, starvation, forced labour, inadequate medical care, and constant physical and psychological assault, including mock executions, torture, beatings, and sexual assault.

By these acts and omissions, Goran HADZIC committed:

Count 5: Imprisonment, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY punishable under Article 5(e) and Article 7 (1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 6: Torture, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY punishable under Article 5(f) and Article 7 (1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 7: Inhumane acts, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY punishable under Article 5(i) and Article 7 (1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 8: Torture, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR as recognised by Common Article 3 (1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 and Article 7 (1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 9: Cruel treatment, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR as recognised by Common Article 3 (1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Article 3 and Article 7 (1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.


COUNTS 10 to 11
(DEPORTATION, FORCIBLE TRANSFER)


From 1 August 1991 until the end of June 1992, Goran HADZIC, acting alone or in concert with other known and unknown members of the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation, or execution of the deportations or forcible transfers of the Croat and other non-Serb civilian population in the territories of the SAO SBWS.

In order to achieve this objective, Serb forces comprised of SAO SBWS Milicija and SNB under the control of GORAN HADZIC, in co-operation with other Serb forces comprised of JNA, local Serb TO forces, Serbian and Montenegrin TO forces, and paramilitary/volunteer units, including the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and other police units, including the Serbian MUP, surrounded predominantly Croat towns, villages, hamlets and neighbourhoods and demanded their non-Serb inhabitants to surrender their weapons, including legally owned hunting rifles. Then, the towns, villages, hamlets and neighbourhoods were attacked, even those whose inhabitants had complied with the demands. These attacks were intended to compel the population to flee. After taking control of the towns, villages, hamlets and neighbourhoods the Serb forces sometimes rounded up the remaining Croat and other non-Serb civilians and forcibly transported them to locations in Croatia controlled by the Croatian government or deported them to locations outside Croatia, in particular Serbia and Montenegro. On other occasions, the Serb forces in co-operation with the local Serb authorities imposed restrictive and discriminatory measures on the non-Serb population and engaged in a campaign of terror designed to drive them out of the territory. The majority of the non-Serbs that remained were then deported or forcibly transferred.

According to the 1991 census, the Croat and other non-Serb population of this area was approximately as follows:

SAO SBWS: 47 % Croats (90,454).

Set out in Annex III are detailed population statistics for this area according to the 1991 census.

Virtually the whole Croat and non-Serb population of this area was forcibly transferred, deported or killed.

By these acts and omissions, Goran HADZIC committed:

Count 10: Deportation, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(d) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 11: Inhumane Acts (Forcible Transfers), a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(i) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.


COUNTS 12 to 14
(WANTON DESTRUCTION, PLUNDER OF PUBLIC OR PRIVATE PROPERTY)


From 1 August 1991 until the end of June 1992, Goran HADZIC, acting alone or in concert with other known and unknown members of the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation, or execution of the wanton destruction and plunder of the public and private property of the Croat and other non-Serb population, within the territories of the SAO SBWS, although these actions were not justified by military necessity. This intentional and wanton destruction and plunder included the plunder and destruction of homes and religious and cultural buildings, and took place in the following towns and villages:

Dalj, Dalj Planina, Celija, Vukovar, Erdut, Erdut Planina, Aljmas, Lovas, Sarengrad, Bapska and Tovarnik.

By these acts and omissions, Goran HADZIC committed:

Count 12: Wanton destruction of villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, punishable under Articles 3 (b) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 13: Destruction or wilful damage done to institutions dedicated to education or religion, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, punishable under Articles 3(d) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

Count 14: Plunder of public or private property, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, punishable under Articles 3(e) and 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

source

Looks like the Serbs are finally hurrying up, doing what needs to be done.
 
After seeing this photo of him taken during his arrest
goran-hadzic-pic-ap-938327022.jpg

he instantly reminded me of
Pressure-On-Benitez-To-Lift-As-Inter-Become-World-Champions.jpg

(Rafa Benitez) :D
 
Operation Trojan T-shirt

EXIT-Germany has caused a stir among the extreme right with a Trojan shirt. The organisation had
T-shirts distributed at the right-wing ‘Rock for Germany’ festival in Gera on August 6th. The true purpose of the shirts was only revealed in the privacy of the owners’ homes.

EXIT-Germany supports people who want to turn their back on the extreme right-wing scene, helping them to drop out. To reach the target group, the EXIT team employed the special method of a Trojan T-shirt. EXIT had 250 T-shirts produced with a print that vanished when the shirts were washed. Before washed, they sported a skull and the inscription ‘Hardcore Rebels’ as well as the woven flags of unaffiliated right-wing groups. Underneath that, there was a non-washable inscription that said, ‘You, too, can accomplish what your T-shirt can do — we will help you get away from the extreme right’ and the EXIT contact data. The trick: the true message only appeared once the shirt was washed in the washing machine. To make sure the Trojans reached their proper target group, EXIT created a fictitious person and contacted the organiser, the NPD Thuringia, on his behalf. Pretending to be anonymous support, the T-shirts were offered as a donation for the right-wing ‘Rock for Germany’ festival (Rock für Deutschland, RfD). On August 6th the festival organisers then distributed the Trojan T-shirts among the first visitors.

Twenty-four hours after the festival ended the first bulk SMS distributors received the following warning for distribution: ‘Attention, sham! Yesterday T-shirts were given away at RfD with a message from Exit, the government’s dropout programme, underneath the inscription “Hardcore Rebels”. This message only becomes visible after the item has been washed for the first time.
Here Exit has wasted several thousands of the taxpayer’s euros [sic!].’ Bernd Wagner, the founder of EXIT-Germany, comments this campaign as follows: ‘We wanted to use the T-shirts to publicise our services on that scene, mainly addressing the young right-wingers who are not so staunch yet.’ That this attempt was successful is demonstrated by the comments on the Facebook page, which is no longer available. The user ‘Arno Nymer’ for example wrote: ‘but you have to give them credit for having good ideas sometimes;)’.

This year the NPD’s ‘Rock for Germany’ festival was held for the ninth time already. About 600 neo-Nazis attended the concert.

Source (Scroll down for English translation of the article):
http://www.exit-deutschland.de/EXIT/Top ... -E1285.htm


Nice one! I don't see German neo-nazis a serious threat at the moment, because they are disorganised and have very little credibility (except in some remote rural areas in the east), but of course they need to be contained so they don't grow again. And I really love the creativity behind that idea.
 
Finland think they have a separate deal with Greece (and some others want the same), but that won't be so easily.

Dutch reject Austrian proposal on Greek collateral

The Dutch Finance Minister rejected on Monday an Austrian proposal for more collateral to be made available to countries whose banks and insurers are less exposed to Greece.

"The Netherlands is no supporter of this proposal. It is not compatible with the principle of equal treatment of all euro countries and would, like the Finnish proposal, lead to bigger claims to the EFSF," Jan Kees de Jager said in a letter to parliament.

De Jager also said that suggestions that Finland and Greece had a lawful agreement over collateral were incorrect and that the Netherlands would not agree to a bilateral agreement for cash collateral because it would raise Greece's borrowing needs and breach the notion of equal treatment for euro zone states.

"A number of technical, legal complications could also arise in the giving of collateral," De Jager added.

Finland reached a deal with Greece last week on collateral for loans to Athens, clearing the way for the Nordic euro member to help the debt-burdened country.
 
This started in "Recent additions to your music collection"

Perun said:
It's not. Scandinavian peoples speak Norse-Germanic languages (Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Icelandic and local dialects), while Finns speak a Finno-Ugric language (which isn't even of Indo-European origin). Finland is also very different from its geography and culture. The ties to Scandinavia may be very strong, but by any definition, Finland isn't a Scandinavian country.

Interesting, this statement triggered me. I just did some reading on the subject, because I always thought it was part of Scandinavia.

Basically it comes down to this:
In English (Dutch and probably lots of other languages), Scandinavia is sometimes used as a synonym for most of the Nordic countries (including Finland, but excluding Greenland), but when you ask the people who live in the area themselves, that word refers only to Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

However, when you look at it from a geographic angle Scandinavia is the area equal to the Scandinavian Peninsula, which covers Norway, Sweden, and most of northern Finland. You can also say that Finland is a Nordic country situated in the Fennoscandian region of Northern Europe.

Fennoscandia and Fenno-Scandinavia are geographic and geological terms used to describe the Scandinavian Peninsula, the Kola Peninsula, Karelia and Finland. Geologically, Fennoscandia also alludes to the underlying Fennoscandian Shield of Norway, Sweden, Finland, which is the exposed portion of the Baltic Shield and is over 3.1 billion years old.

220px-Fennoscandia.png

Scandinavian Peninsula in relation to the larger Fennoscandia

Also:
- There are cultural and historical ties between Finland and western neighbours. Maybe not the whole of Finland, but definitely some parts.

- A Scandinavian defence union between Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark was planned after the end of WWII.

- According to the WWF, the territory of Finland can be subdivided into three ecoregions: the Scandinavian and Russian taiga, Sarmatic mixed forests and Scandinavian Montane Birch forest and grasslands.

- Last but not least: Finland is associated with Scandinavia because it has the same quality in metal music, as in Sweden, Norway and Denmark.  :D
 
Here comes the cultural perspective: As I said, the Finns speak a different language from the rest of the Norse countries. Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language whose closest relatives are Estonian and Mordvinic (a language native to the Ural mountains). Finno-Ugric is a branch of the Uralic languages. The rest of the Norse countries speak Germanic languages, which are part of the Indo-European language tree.
Also, Finland was not an active participant in the long Scandinavian history until the Swedes gradually occupied it between the 13th and 16th centuries. Until that time, the Finns had closer ties to parts of what is now Russia. In effect, the Finns did not pray to the Norse gods, they were not Vikings, and they were not part of the Christianisation process in Scandinavia. The Swedes forced Christianity on them in the course of several Crusades, and Finland was a province of the Swedish empire for several centuries. Note it was the Swedish empire, and not the Finno-Swedish empire.
 
Black Wizard said:
This is why I am slightly baffled by Turisas' attempt at becoming Vikings.
Mathias Nygård, their main songwriter, is swedish-speaking, that might have something to do with it.  But I agree, the change from their first album to the second is somewhat strange.  Battle Metal is clearly inspired by Finnish mythology and culture, whereas The Varangian Way and Stand Up and Fight are more Viking-inspired.  They're definitely very different from the likes of Ensiferum and Korpiklaani, who embrace the Finnish culture.  Though, to be fair, Turisas don't sing about Norse gods and mythology like, say, Amon Amarth.

Forostar said:
- Last but not least: Finland is associated with Scandinavia because it has the same quality in metal music, as in Sweden, Norway and Denmark.  :D

No, we are separate from Scandinavia because we have a higher quality in metal music. ;)
 
Black Wizard said:
This is why I am slightly baffled by Turisas' attempt at becoming Vikings.

I don't think they want it to be taken that seriously. ;)
 
Perun said:
Here comes the cultural perspective: As I said, the Finns speak a different language from the rest of the Norse countries. Finnish is a Finno-Ugric language whose closest relatives are Estonian and Mordvinic (a language native to the Ural mountains). Finno-Ugric is a branch of the Uralic languages. The rest of the Norse countries speak Germanic languages, which are part of the Indo-European language tree.
Also, Finland was not an active participant in the long Scandinavian history until the Swedes gradually occupied it between the 13th and 16th centuries. Until that time, the Finns had closer ties to parts of what is now Russia. In effect, the Finns did not pray to the Norse gods, they were not Vikings, and they were not part of the Christianisation process in Scandinavia. The Swedes forced Christianity on them in the course of several Crusades, and Finland was a province of the Swedish empire for several centuries. Note it was the Swedish empire, and not the Finno-Swedish empire.

I am surprised that you leave out all the perspectives binding the countries in question.
Sami people. Goes way further back and still exist as we speak.

350px-Saami_Family_1900.jpg

A Sami family in Norway around 1900

Injuns! ;)

Here various articles on wiki about
-the people -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people
-the area (Sápmi) -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sápmi_(area)
-the languages -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_languages
-religion -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_shamanism
-the culture -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people#Culture
To make up for past suppression, the authorities of Norway, Sweden and Finland now make an effort to build up Sami cultural institutions and promote Sami culture and language.
-Fragments of Lappish Mythology -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragments_ ... _Mythology
Fragments of Lappish Mythology is the detailed documented account of the Sami religious beliefs and mythology during the mid-19th century. It was written between 1838–1845 by Swedish minister Lars Levi Læstadius, but was not published until 1997 in Swedish, Finnish in 2000 and in English in 2002. The book was originally written for the French funded La Recherche Expedition of 1838–1840, but was lost and soon forgotten for many decades thereafter.


The Sami people, also spelled Sámi, or Saami, are the arctic indigenous people inhabiting Sápmi, which today encompasses parts of far northern Sweden, Norway, Finland, the Kola Peninsula of R, and the border area between south and middle Sweden and Norway.

Sami ancestral lands span an area of approximately 388,350 km2 (150,000 sq. mi), which is approximately the size of Sweden in the Nordic countries. Their traditional languages are the Sami languages and are classified as a branch of the Uralic language family.

300px-Corrected_sami_map_4.PNG

Historically verified distribution of the Sami languages: 1. Southern Sami, 2. Ume Sami, 3. Pite Sami, 4. Lule Sami, 5. Northern Sami, 6. Skolt Sami, 7. Inari Sami, 8. Kildin Sami, 9. Ter Sami. Darkened area represents municipalities that recognize Sami as an official language.

Politics:
Norway, Finland and Sweden all have Sami Parliaments that to varying degrees are involved in governing the region - though mostly they only have authority over the matters of the Sami citizens of the states in which they are situated.

Invader said:
No, we are separate from Scandinavia because we have a higher quality in metal music. ;)

Hehe. :D
 
Last edited:
Back
Top