The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I think bearfan made it quite obvious that he considers these people non-human. "Deportation" is a fancy word for death penalty here. Method obviously doesn't matter when the intention is to eliminate.
European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
I think bearfan made it quite obvious that he considers these people non-human. "Deportation" is a fancy word for death penalty here. Method obviously doesn't matter when the intention is to eliminate.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Yeh, give it a rest Zare. Brick. Fucking. Wall.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
I think you words in my mouth .. they are acting like animals. They are not citizens of Germany/wherever in many of these cases. The law allows them to be deported. Deport them, they left Syria, they can be sent back to Syria or wherever. It is clearly possibly to cross the border.
What do you want to do, say "you may have molested and/or raped a bunch of women .. here, come live in my neighborhood"
What do you want to do, say "you may have molested and/or raped a bunch of women .. here, come live in my neighborhood"
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Speaking of putting words into people's mouths...
Jail exists. Put them in jail for a life sentence. Just like what you'd do with anyone that commits those crimes.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Do you get life for pulling down someone's underwear, battery, theft, or even rape in Germany? I tend to doubt it.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
That's up to the law to decide.
And this is why I stay out of threads like these. Impossible to have a civil discussion without the riff raff joining in and adding nothing to the thread.
I appreciate your responses, LC, I agree on most of your points and have a better understanding of where you're coming from on those I'm not sure about (not necessarily disagree).
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Seems like the law is nowhere near life for rape (without causing death), so assume much less for the other offenses. Most common is under a year (this is a bit old)
http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4352&context=lcp
The law:
Before 1997, the definition of rape was: "Whoever compels a woman to have extramarital intercourse with him, or with a third person, by force or the threat of present danger to life or limb, shall be punished by not less than two years’ imprisonment."[17]
In 1997, a broader definition was adopted with the 13th criminal amendment, section 177–179, which deals with sexual abuse.[5] Rape is generally reported to the police, although it is also allowed to report to the prosecutor or District Court.[9]
The current law reads:[18]
Section 177
Sexual assault by use of force or threats; rape
1) Whosoever coerces another person
1. by force;
2. by threat of imminent danger to life or limb; or
3. by exploiting a situation in which the victim is unprotected and at the mercy of the offender,
to suffer sexual acts by the offender or a third person on their own person or to engage actively in sexual activity with the offender or a third person, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year.
(2) In especially serious cases the penalty shall be imprisonment of not less than two years. An especially serious case typically occurs if
1. the offender performs sexual intercourse with the victim or performs similar sexual acts with the victim, or allows them to be performed on himself by the victim, especially if they degrade the victim or if they entail penetration of the body (rape); or
2. the offence is committed jointly by more than one person.
Subsections (3), (4) and (5) provide additional stipulations on sentencing depending on aggravating or mitigating circumstances.
Section 178 provides that "If the offender through sexual assault or rape (section 177) causes the death of the victim at least by gross negligence the penalty shall be imprisonment for life or not less than ten years."
http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4352&context=lcp
The law:
Before 1997, the definition of rape was: "Whoever compels a woman to have extramarital intercourse with him, or with a third person, by force or the threat of present danger to life or limb, shall be punished by not less than two years’ imprisonment."[17]
In 1997, a broader definition was adopted with the 13th criminal amendment, section 177–179, which deals with sexual abuse.[5] Rape is generally reported to the police, although it is also allowed to report to the prosecutor or District Court.[9]
The current law reads:[18]
Section 177
Sexual assault by use of force or threats; rape
1) Whosoever coerces another person
1. by force;
2. by threat of imminent danger to life or limb; or
3. by exploiting a situation in which the victim is unprotected and at the mercy of the offender,
to suffer sexual acts by the offender or a third person on their own person or to engage actively in sexual activity with the offender or a third person, shall be liable to imprisonment of not less than one year.
(2) In especially serious cases the penalty shall be imprisonment of not less than two years. An especially serious case typically occurs if
1. the offender performs sexual intercourse with the victim or performs similar sexual acts with the victim, or allows them to be performed on himself by the victim, especially if they degrade the victim or if they entail penetration of the body (rape); or
2. the offence is committed jointly by more than one person.
Subsections (3), (4) and (5) provide additional stipulations on sentencing depending on aggravating or mitigating circumstances.
Section 178 provides that "If the offender through sexual assault or rape (section 177) causes the death of the victim at least by gross negligence the penalty shall be imprisonment for life or not less than ten years."
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
I'l agree with that, but it means those convicted of rape will not be in prison for anywhere near life.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Like I said, that's a matter of German law. Shouldn't have a specification for this specific event. I used the life sentence as an example because you'd get at least 10 on most occasions here, 20+ is pretty common as well. Combining joined rape, battery and theft would almost certainly end up with life sentence. Didn't think it'd be that low in Germany.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
German (along with about every other country) law also provides for deportation of non-citizens who commit serious crimes. Rape, battery, and sexual assault all seem to qualify as serious.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Yeah that wouldn't be a problem in a normal situation. But it's far from normal. Deportation to a warzone basically means death sentence. And that's why some people here, including myself, reacted to your proposal in the way they did.
With that being said I read that a lot of the criminals were of Moroccan origin. Morocco is not a war zone. If true, that rule might apply to them.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
It means deportation to a less than desirable situation for sure, but it is not certain death. Germany essentially invited them in and a subset of these people responded by doing some really horrible things ... not petty crimes by any stretch. They cannot keep them in jail forever and you would have a hard time telling the next victim "well, we did not want to send them back, because they might be in danger ... so, we will put you in danger instead"
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I still think they should do their utmost to keep them in jail for as long as they can without gambling on their lives thinking "it's not certain death". At least until the things settle down a bit. Not sure how long that's gonna take, though. 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? That's what makes it a sticky situation to handle from a law and political standpoint.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Fairly obvious advice to Zare in the face of bearfan's ridiculous avoidance of the questions he was asked.
Civil?
LC explained incredibly clearly the line all three of you crossed in your comparison of people with animals.
...
It's a very, very fine line.
Read your own words. You didn't say anything about acting like animals.
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Nothing civil about this, Mosh. No need to call me riff raff.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
It makes for a sticky situation when you have to tell a community that you are releasing a bunch of people that behaved this way into their midst. I would not be happy with that, I assume you or anyone else would not be either in what realistically will be in just a few years at most for those who "only" groped and committed "minor" sexual assaults on any female they ran across -- children included. Probably at most 10 years, but probably much much less if you go by averages
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
But the problem is, wouldn't it be the same issue for a German rapist? You're releasing him into the public after a short time (by averages, as you said) in jail.
That speaks more about what we consider a fault (insufficient punishment of rape, or sexual assault in general) in German law rather than this specific event.
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bearfan
Ancient Mariner
__________________________________________________
Acting like, because these people (to be REALLY fucking clear) those who did thing like this
"It was terrifying, I got separated from my boyfriend and as they were pulling at my clothes. I thought I would be raped right there in public," says one 26-year-old woman. "I screamed for help but everywhere I looked the same thing was happening; attack and robbery. But just women. They targeted us because we were women."
Victims suffered permanent burns as the men threw fireworks into the crowd to cause fear and confusion.
A father told how he watched helplessly, clutching his baby son as his partner and 15-year-old daughter were swept away and mauled by men thrusting hands inside their jeans and underwear.
fits the definition of an animal to me.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
That is a problem everywhere, rapists are not locked up for life ... but you can have some restrictions on a citizen (sex offender lists, etc) after release (not sure if Germany has those or not). You could also make a case that a citizen is someone brought up in that state and it is their problem to deal with them. A bit different from someone who just showed up saying they want to live there to escape some sort of bad conditions and then inflicts bad conditions on their hosts.