Crazy news 'round the globe

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Hmmm better let's keep it to the competition argument and I agree with Azas, it looks unfair.

“What the fuck” = HRT, which Lia Thomas, the swimmer who kickstarted Gaines’s bigotry arc, has been doing for years now. HRT radically changes your body; for a trans woman it means you lose a lot of muscle mass and with that goes your strength. Thomas has followed all the guidelines to be able to compete in women’s sports, and again, didn’t even win the competition that Gaines is still mad about. There’s a difference between not being on HRT and competing and being on HRT and competing. After a certain amount of time the difference between a trans woman’s body and a cis woman’s is practically nil.

...though I must admit the above from Diesel will make me check my claim better.
 
That's not just a stupid take, but a factually malignant one. Cisgender women can be born without a uterus (Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser syndrome). Are they not considered women now?
I have no problem calling a trans woman a woman, if that's what she wants. I have no problem with someone arguing that trans women should participate in sports with biological women, even though it seems wrong to me. But I do have a problem with privileged students at university shouting down a rational discussion and even using physical harm. I have voted for social democrats ever since I could vote, but they lose me with their cancel culture.

This is a good example of a civil discussion, which also explains why the argument
born without a uterus
scientifically doesn't hold any water (that's what it seems to me, at least):


Edit: Adding to what I wrote, and also considering @Diesel's reply a bit further: I see that trans people have a difficult life, and think they absolutely should fight for their rights. Perhaps we should just be respectful to each other. On the other hand, I read a bit of Richard Dawkins recently, and I think I can understand his position on this particular subject as well, which is: We're not about sympathy or hostility, we're just about facts.
 
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rational discussion
Sorry, the idea that these are just “rational discussions” is wishful thinking to me. The end goal of the anti-trans movement is the forced removal of trans people from society. There is nothing a rational discussion can do to fix that. I agree, optically, that violence should not be used, but the way it’s been framed as a basis for hating an entire group is lunacy. Shall I point out to you the rising statistics of anti-trans violence which gets ignored a lot in discussions like this, or even bring up how pro-trans women will get shoved to the ground by men at anti-trans rallies called “Let Women Speak”? I will also say that a lot of these anti-trans rallies have been co-opted and attended by neo-nazis. To me anyone who stands with a nazi, is a nazi.

Which brings me to (pardon my English) that dipshit christofascist you quoted above. I have yet to hear an argument from Matt Walsh that has been any form of rational; he makes incredibly incendiary statements underscored by pure horseshit in order to get a rise out of people so he can paint their responses as “look guys, the woke left is attacking little ol’ me again!” I’ll watch the video after work but I likely will have nothing positive to say about it.

On the other hand, I read a bit of Richard Dawkins recently, and I think I can understand his position on this particular subject as well, which is: We're not about sympathy or hostility, we're just about facts.
And here are the accepted facts in the majority of the scientific community: Gender and sex are not the same; sex is based on the body you’re born with and gender is something an individual identifies with personally. HRT radically changes a person’s body, everything from muscle mass to bone density. If you’ve been on HRT for long enough, the difference between you and a cis person of the same gender is negligible. So yes, I’m not here to sympathize with transphobes, nor do I wish to be hostile to them on an individual level. I am simply just looking at the facts, and they speak for themselves.
 
Why is it anyone's business what category a trans person is? How does it affect your life? What do you lose if a trans person is allowed to live their life the way they want to? What sacrifice is there involved with treating trans people according to the gender they identify as?

With all the trans-hatred, transphobia and I'm-not-anti-trans-but-talk, I have never heard an answer to this. The most I've heard is speculation such as that of Gaines, that was disproven.

It would be a non-issue if people wouldn't use it to rouse crude prejudice and score cheap laughs and jeers from people whose lives are unaffected by trans issues.

Why can't we just leave trans people alone?
 
Why can't we just leave trans people alone?

We do, the whole conversation started if it’s fair to participate in competition in sports and this is a legit debate and it should stay in sports.
Even if they loose muscle mass they have trained as men, muscles have a memory and there you go.

I have voted for social democrats ever since I could vote, but they lose me with their cancel culture.

Yeah it’s getting old. “Left” is trying desperately to find new identity in matters such as inclusion, immigration and such when their core concern should be redistribution of wealth and more power to working class. And we all know where those have gone during the last 50 years. This is why they are loosing their appeal in times when everybody should vote for them.
 
Which brings me to (pardon my English) that dipshit christofascist you quoted above.
Calling someone a "fascist" and a "neo-nazi" for arguing scientifically is pretty extreme. What about Richard Dawkins? Is he a christo-fascist too?

And here are the accepted facts in the majority of the scientific community: Gender and sex are not the same; sex is based on the body you’re born with and gender is something an individual identifies with personally.
Exactly! Dawkins: "Science. There are two sexes. You could talk about gender, if you wish and that's a subjective."
Do you think that Dawkins is against trans gender people? Do you seriously think that that's what he wants to say?

As stated above, we were talking about sports, and if trans women should participate with women. It's not okay to shout people down, intimidate them and use physical harm for stating a differing opinion. That's what real "neo-nazis" do. So: I wish that you immediately stop calling us "neo-nazis" and "fascists", thank you.
 
Even if they loose muscle mass they have trained as men, muscles have a memory and there you go.

You're saying this like it's a fact, but it's not. There is no reliable scientific data to support this, only a handful of studies with methodological limitations. So far as I know, one major study has been announced in 2021 but not yet yielded any results.

We do, the whole conversation started if it’s fair to participate in competition in sports and this is a legit debate and it should stay in sports.

As stated above, we were talking about sports, and if trans women should participate with women.

This would be correct if this were a debate confined to some turtleneck intellectuals in late-night talking heads shows. But it's not. The whole thing has a lot of context and a lot of baggage that simply can't be ignored.

Let's start with who Riley Gaines is and why she ended up talking about trans people in sports. Gaines is a former college swimmer who in an NCAA competition in March 2022 was tied for fifth place with a transgender woman named Lia Thomas. The NCAA only had one fifth place trophy in stock and they gave it to Thomas, telling Gaines her trophy would be sent to her via mail and that during the celebration she should stand in sixth place. Gaines was butthurt about this, whining that Thomas had already gotten a trophy the previous competition (where she indeed took first spot) and suspected without any proof that this was done to her because Thomas was transgender.

That's it. That's what happened here. That's why she's talking about a potentially unfair advantage transgender women may have over cisgender women in sports. She said that later, she watched a friend of hers being beaten by Thomas in a competition in which, now get this, Thomas took sixteenth place over her friend, and she suspected that Thomas wasn't even really trying and her friend lost out unfairly.

Now tell me, if transgender women had such an unfair advantage over cisgender women, how is it that in three competitions, Lia Thomas won once, but took fifth and sixteenth spot respectively? Shouldn't she absolutely rip the other athletes a new one every time she enters a pool?

Here's the full story as told by her side, if you don't believe me.

Now, if this were the end of it, there wouldn't be a story, would there. So Gaines associated herself with Republicans running in the 2022 midterms, appearing in campaign ads and on Fox News.

So don't tell me this is about sports or about science. This is about politics. This is about Republicans exploiting a non-issue in an electoral campaign to rile prejudice and hatred among the more bigoted of their voters. There was an enormous anti-trans campaign by the Republicans in 2022, who believed that by focusing on this issue, they could get a landslide victory in the midterms. They didn't, but for whatever reason, this still won't stop them.

So yeah, people are quite upset about this, because this isn't a rational debate, and was never supposed to be. People aren't stupid - they know we've been down this road before. It's as if in Germany in 1933, somebody walked up the stage and said "We should discuss the detrimental societal effects of allowing Jews to own businesses, let's exchange arguments and not shout at each other all the time. My friend Joseph Goebbels agrees with me, btw."

Yes, some people appear on TV shows, others write books on the topic. There was intellectual Anti-Semitism in the 1930s, too. In fact, the term "Anti-Semitism" was coined to give the anti-Jewish sentiment the appearance of rationality and academic foundation. Let's not kid ourselves. This whole transgender "issue" is the same thing, it's people with ulterior motives driving people dissatisfied with their lives to direct their hate and frustration at a small group of people who are perceived as different and can't defend themselves.

There is no debate to be had here. If you think there is, you've already been caught by the Pied Piper.
 
It's very simple, trans women are women, and trans men are men.

Forces of reaction have selected sport as a battleground because most people don't understand the biological changes of hormone replacement therapy and latently, most people believe trans folks (especially trans women) are just people of one gender playing make-believe in the clothes of another. Most people want sport to be played on a level playing field, after all, and it's very easy to imagine a man in a wig dominating a sporting environment made up of women. This simply isn't true, as Perun noted above - when medically transitioned trans women compete in their appropriate gender category, they are not dominant by default.

To put it another way, if the real concern for trans people in sport was a perceived advantage/disadvantage, the real outcome would be trying to help pre-pubescent trans kids get into hormone replacement therapy, to ensure that kids entering sport at the first competitive levels where gender dimorphism takes place are always on a level playing field. Instead, they are going the other way, proving it is about politics, not fairness.

In the USA, a Republican state, I *think* Kansas, just passed a law to allow genital inspection by teachers and coaches prior to kids engaging in sport. In order to protect children, many states are forcing bathroom use based on the person's sex at birth, not their lived gender identity. Some have banned medical care for trans people under the age of 18, and these bills are now expanding to all trans people. And it all started with swim meets and soccer, and it was the intent all along.
 
In the USA, a Republican state, I *think* Kansas, just passed a law to allow genital inspection by teachers and coaches prior to kids engaging in sport.

Yep, it was Kansas:

How is this not "Crazy news 'round the globe"?
 
I don't know what this reaction is for, but many trans people can trace the root of their gender identity to about age....5. Some kids begin treatment around age 10-12. And if they decide that they're not doing the right thing, they can simply stop and then their pre-existing hormones reassert.
 
That is bizarre. A 10-year old doesn’t know what “trans” is. They can be influenced into thinking they’re trans (by parents, society) but hormonal treatment at that age? Come on. When I was around 9, I would sometimes use my mom’s lipstick to paint my lips red. I didn’t pretend to be a girl or anything, I probably just liked the sensation of coloured lips. Pretty weird to think back on it but it was harmless. Thank god my mother didn’t get me into hormone treatment (perhaps a more delusional mother would’ve thought I must want to be a girl) because I was just a kid having fun. That’s what kids do at that age, shameless exploration, not medically transforming their body.
I’ve met transgender people in my life and I tolerate them as I do any other person, but with most of them you can sense deep inner struggles, which have likely contributed to the decision to change from man to woman or from woman to man. I would never want to attribute such struggles to a child still deep in the process of growing up and figuring out life.
 
That's absolutely not true. Read the lived experiences of trans people. Here's a link to an article about a study, for example.

The struggle most trans people have isn't related to who they are, but how they get to who they are supposed to be. Medically transitioned and supported trans people are happy. Those who don't get transition support or life support are miserable. This is very familiar to anyone who's paid attention to how things evolved with gay/lesbian folk, too.
 
Come on, Saap. Obviously nobody is going to give a child HRT just because they like putting on lipstick or play with tanks. The evaluation standards are very high, and there are professionals who can tell normal growing pains apart from other struggles a child may have.
 
I must not understand the topic well enough then. On the one hand, these people must have the right to transition or they will be miserable, and on the other hand we are fed obnoxious shows of grown men running around in drag, yelling like teenagers. Why is something so delicate and important turned into perverse show business? What message are they trying to convey?
And then there’s articles about boys who’ve been forbidden to wear a dress to school etc. Is that really an issue? Do you have to wear a dress to school to express your femininity or can you accept that school sucks sometimes, for everyone? I find it difficult to tell how much of this is really important and how much is media fluff.

Did children feel they were born the wrong sex before any hormone treatment possibilities were invented, before any kind of transitioning was possible? Did they live their lives in misery?
 
You're saying this like it's a fact, but it's not. There is no reliable scientific data to support this, only a handful of studies with methodological limitations. So far as I know, one major study has been announced in 2021 but not yet yielded any results.





This would be correct if this were a debate confined to some turtleneck intellectuals in late-night talking heads shows. But it's not. The whole thing has a lot of context and a lot of baggage that simply can't be ignored.

Let's start with who Riley Gaines is and why she ended up talking about trans people in sports. Gaines is a former college swimmer who in an NCAA competition in March 2022 was tied for fifth place with a transgender woman named Lia Thomas. The NCAA only had one fifth place trophy in stock and they gave it to Thomas, telling Gaines her trophy would be sent to her via mail and that during the celebration she should stand in sixth place. Gaines was butthurt about this, whining that Thomas had already gotten a trophy the previous competition (where she indeed took first spot) and suspected without any proof that this was done to her because Thomas was transgender.

That's it. That's what happened here. That's why she's talking about a potentially unfair advantage transgender women may have over cisgender women in sports. She said that later, she watched a friend of hers being beaten by Thomas in a competition in which, now get this, Thomas took sixteenth place over her friend, and she suspected that Thomas wasn't even really trying and her friend lost out unfairly.

Now tell me, if transgender women had such an unfair advantage over cisgender women, how is it that in three competitions, Lia Thomas won once, but took fifth and sixteenth spot respectively? Shouldn't she absolutely rip the other athletes a new one every time she enters a pool?

Here's the full story as told by her side, if you don't believe me.

Now, if this were the end of it, there wouldn't be a story, would there. So Gaines associated herself with Republicans running in the 2022 midterms, appearing in campaign ads and on Fox News.

So don't tell me this is about sports or about science. This is about politics. This is about Republicans exploiting a non-issue in an electoral campaign to rile prejudice and hatred among the more bigoted of their voters. There was an enormous anti-trans campaign by the Republicans in 2022, who believed that by focusing on this issue, they could get a landslide victory in the midterms. They didn't, but for whatever reason, this still won't stop them.

So yeah, people are quite upset about this, because this isn't a rational debate, and was never supposed to be. People aren't stupid - they know we've been down this road before. It's as if in Germany in 1933, somebody walked up the stage and said "We should discuss the detrimental societal effects of allowing Jews to own businesses, let's exchange arguments and not shout at each other all the time. My friend Joseph Goebbels agrees with me, btw."

Yes, some people appear on TV shows, others write books on the topic. There was intellectual Anti-Semitism in the 1930s, too. In fact, the term "Anti-Semitism" was coined to give the anti-Jewish sentiment the appearance of rationality and academic foundation. Let's not kid ourselves. This whole transgender "issue" is the same thing, it's people with ulterior motives driving people dissatisfied with their lives to direct their hate and frustration at a small group of people who are perceived as different and can't defend themselves.

There is no debate to be had here. If you think there is, you've already been caught by the Pied Piper.

You don't know anything about nazis nor science.
 
@Perun, it crosses my mind that a few years back, you made some very questionable "no homo"-remarks on this very forum -- "jokes". Will you admit that without pretext and apologize for it today?
Du triefst ja vor Selbstgerechtigkeit.
 
Wow. Seriously, wow.


I give you facts, sources and arguments, and you respond with this. Incredible. Do you seriously have nothing to answer with than personal accusations? Do you seriously have no answers to what I'm saying and have to resort to these bottom-of-the-barrel, clichéd ad hominem attacks? Are you really not going to engage with anything I actually said?

Give me the "very questionable "no homo"-remarks" you're talking about, I'll answer to them and also figure out why you think they're relevant. Are you talking about this? Yeah, that was stupid wording of me, I thought the jovial context was obvious, but I wouldn't say it like that anymore. Can you think of anything else? Not saying there wasn't anything else, just that I can't remember it. I probably posted the gay seal image once or twice, and again I admit that was of poor taste, and a pretty juvenile thing to do.

Will you answer to any of my arguments now?
 
I must not understand the topic well enough then. On the one hand, these people must have the right to transition or they will be miserable, and on the other hand we are fed obnoxious shows of grown men running around in drag, yelling like teenagers. Why is something so delicate and important turned into perverse show business? What message are they trying to convey?
And then there’s articles about boys who’ve been forbidden to wear a dress to school etc. Is that really an issue? Do you have to wear a dress to school to express your femininity or can you accept that school sucks sometimes, for everyone? I find it difficult to tell how much of this is really important and how much is media fluff.

Did children feel they were born the wrong sex before any hormone treatment possibilities were invented, before any kind of transitioning was possible? Did they live their lives in misery?
These are truly good questions. The first is that drag isn't an expression of being transgendered, and that there's really nothing wrong with drag, either. Drag queens aren't trans, drag kings aren't trans by definition. (I actually do know a drag queen who is a trans male, but that means when he dresses in drag he's dressing as the gender he was assigned at birth, it's a bit fucky but it comes down to who cares what people do.)

Let's be clear - if you want to wear a dress to school because you think you're a girl, then you're a *girl*. That said, I don't think what someone chooses to wear determines their gender. We'd be better off if we just let people do what they want.

We can find evidence in history of many people living as genders different to their biological sex. We also know of intersex people, who still have a sex and gender chosen for them at birth or very early on as a way of "normalizing" them, with deep and long-lasting effects on who they are. Gender identity being different from biological sex can be recorded all the way back to near the beginning of recorded history. Trans people are normal, and simply, today, we have the medical ability to help their bodies better reflect the way they believe they should be - with comparable increases in their happiness and decreases in their likelihood to suffer mental illness or participate in self-harm.
 
@Perun, it crosses my mind that a few years back, you made some very questionable "no homo"-remarks on this very forum -- "jokes". Will you admit that without pretext and apologize for it today?
Du triefst ja vor Selbstgerechtigkeit.
What's this got to do with anything?
 
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