Bands that fell from grace
- Thread starter Yax
- Start date
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Definitely not my intention. All in all this is a discussion board, is it not?
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Exactly. And of course we're using our own merits. Why the fuck would I have a discussion based on anyone's opinion besides my own?
Luke
Metal Wizard
That's an incredibly self-centered statement.
Because then it's not a discussion? It's just you spouting your opinion.
If you don't want to participate in a "discussion" about said opinions, why are you here? If you've already made up your mind, who's going to sway you?
Calm down everyone. No reason to get wound up about this.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Hold the phone.
First off my "definition" wasn't only about statistics, I set up two arguments first ("Many fans still hold them in high regard including myself, their latest album was acclaimed even though there was some mixed reviews") then brought up album sales and fans, saying that they didn't gain album sales or fans by doing a more straight-forward, basic style or as many would call: Selling out. So let's stop putting words into my mouth because I haven't based my whole argument on that.
Secondly, while I won't hesitate to defend myself against the action of putting words into my mouth, I don't say I won't discuss something upon someone else's merit. I'll try to come up with arguments that stand upon that person's merit which essentially is the right thing to do because there's no logical, positive conversation without it. I only expect other people to take part in my own stance as well, just as I contribute to theirs.
While I disagree with Night Prowler's opinion, I was interested in hearing why he considered the band to be pathetic/sad. I knew he wasn't pleased with the direction the band headed but I didn't think it was fair to call a band that you really liked pathetic over a change of direction that you didn't approve of. Same thing happened to me with Dream Theater because I thought their last album was a huge disappointment but I'm not intending to brush them off just yet. You might not have liked Heritage because it was a homage to 70s prog rock but who knows, maybe the next album will more pleasing to you? You liked Damnation even though it was prog rock because it sounded like Opeth. Mikael says the new album will feature a heavier, not metal heavy but heavier sound with more sinister riffs. Who knows.
First off my "definition" wasn't only about statistics, I set up two arguments first ("Many fans still hold them in high regard including myself, their latest album was acclaimed even though there was some mixed reviews") then brought up album sales and fans, saying that they didn't gain album sales or fans by doing a more straight-forward, basic style or as many would call: Selling out. So let's stop putting words into my mouth because I haven't based my whole argument on that.
Secondly, while I won't hesitate to defend myself against the action of putting words into my mouth, I don't say I won't discuss something upon someone else's merit. I'll try to come up with arguments that stand upon that person's merit which essentially is the right thing to do because there's no logical, positive conversation without it. I only expect other people to take part in my own stance as well, just as I contribute to theirs.
While I disagree with Night Prowler's opinion, I was interested in hearing why he considered the band to be pathetic/sad. I knew he wasn't pleased with the direction the band headed but I didn't think it was fair to call a band that you really liked pathetic over a change of direction that you didn't approve of. Same thing happened to me with Dream Theater because I thought their last album was a huge disappointment but I'm not intending to brush them off just yet. You might not have liked Heritage because it was a homage to 70s prog rock but who knows, maybe the next album will more pleasing to you? You liked Damnation even though it was prog rock because it sounded like Opeth. Mikael says the new album will feature a heavier, not metal heavy but heavier sound with more sinister riffs. Who knows.
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Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
Enough about Opeth. I still think they're great, as do several others. Night Prowler is dismayed by their creative direction. Neither of us is wrong. 'Nuff said.
Any band that plays state fairs and non-Vegas casinos is "pathetic and sad," in my view. That's not Metallica or Opeth. Or Megadeth. It is, however, Blue Oyster Cult. Sorry, mckindog, if you are in this thread, but this seems like the most obvious example of what Yax had in mind. Check out their tour schedule: http://www.blueoystercult.com/Road/OnTour.html
Kiss is a tough call. They are pathetic and sad, in a way -- and have been for over 30 years -- but they are still pretty damn popular, and still fill decent-sized venues. Plus, they always sucked, so no grace from which to fall.
Another band that comes to mind is Journey -- still touring, they are, at this point, largely a cover band of themselves. Too bad, Infinity is one of my favorite albums.
Any band that plays state fairs and non-Vegas casinos is "pathetic and sad," in my view. That's not Metallica or Opeth. Or Megadeth. It is, however, Blue Oyster Cult. Sorry, mckindog, if you are in this thread, but this seems like the most obvious example of what Yax had in mind. Check out their tour schedule: http://www.blueoystercult.com/Road/OnTour.html
Kiss is a tough call. They are pathetic and sad, in a way -- and have been for over 30 years -- but they are still pretty damn popular, and still fill decent-sized venues. Plus, they always sucked, so no grace from which to fall.
Another band that comes to mind is Journey -- still touring, they are, at this point, largely a cover band of themselves. Too bad, Infinity is one of my favorite albums.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
Journey got famous again because of Glee. That constitutes a fall from grace of there ever was one.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
I'll agree on Journey. Blue Oyster Cult...I was unaware they were still together.
If that's the definition we're using, then there is no difference between Kiss and Blue Oyster Cult these days other than their relative popularity — two bands who had something significant going 35 years ago and now merely play music because hey, you've got to make a living somehow.
That said, this could apply to 90 per cent of the bands that peaked before 1990. Check out the rosters of one of those heavy metal cruise ships.
And this applies to far more than metal bands; its pretty much the natural evolution of the music industry, going all the way back to Elvis and Chuck Berry.
Judas Priest is even falling into that trap.
It's bands like Maiden that are the exception — and we had a whole thread about whether or not they are starting to flirt with that territory.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Guns and Roses fits the bill the most. I thought Chinese Democracy was an okay album, but given all the crap surrounding the band and how long it took to come you, it was a mess.
Kiss two guys pretending to be 2 ex band mates is pretty pathetic IMO.
Slayer is on it's way to being added to this list, but they are not there yet. Recent Megadeth albums have been poor, but at least they still play well live. I agree with teh Anthrax statements, I liked the Bush era stuff moreso then their 80s stuff .. I thought Worship Music was a decent album, but Ian seems obsessed with being a B-celebrity at this point
Kiss two guys pretending to be 2 ex band mates is pretty pathetic IMO.
Slayer is on it's way to being added to this list, but they are not there yet. Recent Megadeth albums have been poor, but at least they still play well live. I agree with teh Anthrax statements, I liked the Bush era stuff moreso then their 80s stuff .. I thought Worship Music was a decent album, but Ian seems obsessed with being a B-celebrity at this point
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
I was thinking of Motley Crue, but then I realized that they never had much grace anyway.
However, I do think Max Cavalera is a good example of a musician who has fallen from grace. About twenty years ago Sepultura were the next big thing in Metal. 'Beneath the Remains' was a Thrash classic and songs like 'Arise' and 'Refuse/Resist' had given them the kind of exposure that other bands could only dream of. Then in 1996 they released a pretty dodgy album in 'Roots' which had their best known song 'Roots Blood Roots' and played an iconic set at Monsters of Rock festival at Donington Park (which Max was unable to attend, I think due to the death of his son). Later that year Max quit the band and formed Soulfly whose music was similar to the sound of 'Roots', somewhat following the Nu-Metal trend. Sepultura replaced Max with Derrick Green and began to decline until a recent change in fortunes, perhaps coinciding with the departure of their drummer Igor Cavalera, Max's brother, who seems to have fallen from grace a bit as well. Igor went on to form Cavalera Conspiracy with Max, and he has also played with Soulfly recently. Both these bands play Sepultura's best known songs at their shows, and Cavalera Conspiracy sound like what Sepultura could have sounded like if 'Roots' hadn't happened. I believe that Max has spoken of his interest in a Sepultura reunion but Andreas Kisser, the only original member left, is not interested. Sepultura are still releasing good music and performing well where as Max's bands sound the same and get crowds from playing Sepultura's classics. I don't really see him as a credible musician any more, because if he wanted to keep playing those songs then he shouldn't have quit in the first place.
However, I do think Max Cavalera is a good example of a musician who has fallen from grace. About twenty years ago Sepultura were the next big thing in Metal. 'Beneath the Remains' was a Thrash classic and songs like 'Arise' and 'Refuse/Resist' had given them the kind of exposure that other bands could only dream of. Then in 1996 they released a pretty dodgy album in 'Roots' which had their best known song 'Roots Blood Roots' and played an iconic set at Monsters of Rock festival at Donington Park (which Max was unable to attend, I think due to the death of his son). Later that year Max quit the band and formed Soulfly whose music was similar to the sound of 'Roots', somewhat following the Nu-Metal trend. Sepultura replaced Max with Derrick Green and began to decline until a recent change in fortunes, perhaps coinciding with the departure of their drummer Igor Cavalera, Max's brother, who seems to have fallen from grace a bit as well. Igor went on to form Cavalera Conspiracy with Max, and he has also played with Soulfly recently. Both these bands play Sepultura's best known songs at their shows, and Cavalera Conspiracy sound like what Sepultura could have sounded like if 'Roots' hadn't happened. I believe that Max has spoken of his interest in a Sepultura reunion but Andreas Kisser, the only original member left, is not interested. Sepultura are still releasing good music and performing well where as Max's bands sound the same and get crowds from playing Sepultura's classics. I don't really see him as a credible musician any more, because if he wanted to keep playing those songs then he shouldn't have quit in the first place.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
It isn't. If it would be popularity, then Yax wouldn't have asked us about personal opinions because they would be irrelevant.
This thread, which is thankfully already dead, has posthoumosly been awarded with the Maidenfans.com Medal of Stupendous Boredom Third Class.
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Grounds for awarding are that this is the most unnecessary and retarded case of talking past each other that I have witnessed in a long time, and the fact that this post was in all seriousness made twice. As always, objections will be ignored.
Thank you for your attention.