❤ Dating Advice For MaidenFans Thread ❤

[LooseCannon]

Who said they should want to risk it? Now this actually is a straw man. Who said women shouldn't accuse men period?

Nobody said that. I'm referring to your origin, where you suggested women are more standoffish and don't want to interact with strangers.

How does coming to terms with the possibility of some women falsely accusing men of sexual harrassment and assault help decrease the risk of rape, exactly? How about they don't falsely accuse people, and we wait for due process before incriminating men? Is that too much to ask for?

The problem is due process doesn't work with sexual assault, even when there's evidence. Almost nobody wants a false sexual assault to be reported - not the police, not the vast majority of #MeToo reporters, not me. But very few of them are false. The ones you sited above are unverifiable.

If a woman is sexually assaulted by a man and there's no proof, should she remain silent? I mean, it's her right to remain silent, but should she remain silent because due process can't do more than put them into a he-said she-said situation where the man gets off due to the way our justice system works.

 

[Mosh]

I don't have time to get deep into this but here's some anecdotal experience. Basically, I strongly agree with @LooseCannon

Almost every female friend I have has been sexually assaulted or harassed in some shape or form. Most victims of sexual assault that I know were unable to press charges because the bar to prove these things is so high. On the contrary, a man close to me was (imo, falsely) accused of sexual assault only to have that accusation rescinded less than 24 hours later because the bar to prove these things is so high. There are currently two sitting Supreme Court justices who have had credible accusations of sexual assault but their careers and reputations have not been tarnished because the bar to prove these things is so high. There is obviously a risk of a miscarriage of justice, as LC noted, but the number of those false accusations are either greatly exaggerated or unverified. Furthermore, the exaggeration of false accusations makes it more difficult for women to come forward out of fear of being placed under heavy scrutiny and further harassment. And, because of due process, unless there's hard evidence the man is going to get off every time.

As for the greater social impact of MeToo, I really haven't noticed a problem when it comes to interacting with women. I don't notice them being uptight and I am not living in constant fear of someone accusing me of something. A lot of women can afford to be picky, I don't see a problem with that especially when there is a constant risk of rape. I respectfully suggest that if you're having a hard time meeting people, you need to figure out what you're doing wrong. If you have a platonic female friend, ask them for honest advice. You are probably doing something that comes off as unattractive without realizing it. I also suggest trying to meet women for genuine interest in knowing them as people, not making a sexual/romantic relationship a priority.

 

[The Flash]

If a woman is sexually assaulted by a man and there's no proof, should she remain silent? I mean, it's her right to remain silent, but should she remain silent because due process can't do more than put them into a he-said she-said situation where the man gets off due to the way our justice system works.

No woman who is sexually assaulted by a man should remain silent. But we should wait for the law to get involved before coming to the conclusion that the accused is guilty. You keep pointing to falsely accused men not seeing negative consequences. True, from a legal standpoint. False, from a societal standpoint. The accusation sticks to you. Being accused of sex crimes gives you one of the most difficult stigmas to deal with. If we're talking about anectodal evidence, there was a case here where a guy got accused of sexual harrassment because he stared at a girl. Nobody really talked about what actually transpired, just that he was accused of sexual harrassment. Most people didn't even follow through with the case, which found him not guilty, he was still known as the guy who was accused of sexual harrassment.

Think about this, basketball player Derrick Rose got accused of rape three years ago. The woman accused Rose and his friends of rape months later after the incident and he ultimately was found not liable. Yet, the allegations still come up whenever Rose's name is mentioned in non-basketball circles. The charges being dropped doesn't simply get rid of all the stigma associated with it. And that's why it's important not to incriminate men before due process.

Nobody said that. I'm referring to your origin, where you suggested women are more standoffish and don't want to interact with strangers.

My point was the changes in regard to what constitutes sexual harrassment. I think the threshold for sexual harrassment has been lowered quite a bit. There are cases of women who call complements in the work place sexual harrassment. There are cases of women calling innuendos sexual harrassment. That's not good. Even you, unintended as it might be, directly started to talk about cases of sexual assault even though my original point about the more uptight women/more timid men dynamic is more about the lowered threshold of what constitutes sexual harrassment. Assault is more direct and easily noticable in a public place, though there also are people who equate cases of sexual misconduct/harrassment with sexual assault, as evidenced by people mentioning Louis C.K. in the same breath as Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby.

I would also like to point out that there are off-shoots of the #MeToo movement like #BelieveAllWomen. That is not acceptable. We shouldn't believe all women just because they are women. That is a terrible message to send that could unfairly tarnish the reputations of many men.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

I have not read your complete correspondence, Flash and LC, but keep in mind that movements don't necessarily play a large role in a life of a society. The SJW, alt-right thing is not overly present in my country or in the neighboring countries. We went through different fates than some other countries. For instance, my grandmother participated in WW2 from 1941 to 1945 in a guerilla commando role on the front lines. She had bullet holes in her. It's not a big deal, plenty of grandmas that way. So yeah, be a chad and try to take her rights away from her, see how that goes for you.

 

[Ariana]

One thing that you may need to take into account is the amount and frequency of direct or indirect advances an average woman may have to deal with. And while the direct, violent attacks may be relatively rare, the other instances have a strong cumulative effect on the psyche and tend to lower the threshold of tolerance immensely, so that any stare or touch can feel like a violation. And as Mosh mentioned, the vast majority of women have experienced unwanted physical contact, even if it can hardly be qualified as sexual harassment in absolute terms. Why should they put up with that if they don't want it, even if that may be courtship or innocent flirting in the eyes of the man?

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

The dating advice on this site is brutal.

 

[Saapanael]

I wanted to point something out in relation to most girls being in relationships. I can't generalize for all women, obviously, but if my experience is anything to go by, most girls/women don't end up one relationship until they have something new shaping up. Excluding abusive/toxic relationships, that is. In other words, don't look for single girls only. Someone might be in a relationship just because they haven't found the incentive to end it, which may be you in fact.

Yup, actually I’ve been keeping this in mind. When a girl who’s in a relationship is being friendly, it does sometimes give the impression that it might not be a good relationship. The one girl I very much like at the moment has seemed glad to see me the few times we’ve seen each other. Twice she has touched my arm and then hurried off, as if to say that she likes me but doesn’t want to get too close or risk disloyalty. And her cute doe eyes...These subtle hints make me very happy but only briefly because I can’t expect anything to happen, especially if we see each other less than once a month. Still, it’s good you mentioned this.

One thing that you may need to take into account is the amount and frequency of direct or indirect advances an average woman may have to deal with. And while the direct, violent attacks may be relatively rare, the other instances have a strong cumulative effect on the psyche and tend to lower the threshold of tolerance immensely, so that any stare or touch can feel like a violation. And as Mosh mentioned, the vast majority of women have experienced unwanted physical contact, even if it can hardly be qualified as sexual harassment in absolute terms. Why should they put up with that if they don't want it, even if that may be courtship or innocent flirting in the eyes of the man?

I get that, women are flirted with a lot. The bad thing is when you have no harmful intentions but get shut out. This had happened to me many a time: I’m at a party where I don’t know many people so instead of staying in a corner I make an effort to get to know people, men and women alike, but in trying to make small talk I get responded with coldness and “keep away, weirdo” attitude, probably stemming from fear of sexual intentions. This makes me feel like the acts of a few abusive men take a toll on all the others.

 

[The Flash]

And while the direct, violent attacks may be relatively rare, the other instances have a strong cumulative effect on the psyche and tend to lower the threshold of tolerance immensely, so that any stare or touch can feel like a violation.

This is the problem. This, combined with constant fearmongering about men's sexual advances and the lowered threshold for what constitutes sexual harrassment is going to make women far too scared to allow men to approach them, and men far too timid to approach women. I don't think this is healthy for society. There's a difference between being concerned and being paranoid. Gen Z is already having problems with socialization as it is.

Women being subjected to aggressive sexual advances is nothing new, but I feel like the cases of guarded women and timid men is much more prominent among the youth. There needs to be a balance, which was what I said initially.

 

[The Flash]

I also want to add this and I did briefly mention it before;

I think the possibility of an aggressive male push back against the guarded women/timid men dynamic is a massive concern. This is already happening to some extent, with men who are struggling to approach and establish connections with women desperately looking for help on pickup artist sites and in the manosphere and going the exact opposite direction and embracing aggression entirely. If such a push back becomes widespread, it could tarnish all the gains that have been made in terms of women's protection against sexual harrassment and assault.

I've been studying social media on this issue for a while. I believe this has more prominence among Gen Z and young Millennials than people may be aware of and it concerns me.

 

[Perun]

I had a long post written here and accidentally deleted it before posting. I don't want to write up all this again, so I'm just going to retype the closing thoughts I had:

Women have the same desires in terms of partnership and sex as men. If a woman wants either, she will make it clear, and then a man has all the rights to answer to this. If she doesn't, then where does a man take his right from to grope or catcall her? It's really not that hard of a concept.

 

[The Flash]

If condoning sexual harrassment and assault is what you got from my posts Per, I have nothing to do but express my disappointment.

 

[Perun]

I don't know where you got this idea from.

 

[The Flash]

There is nobody here on my side in the discussion, and this is what you said:

If she doesn't, then where does a man take his right from to grope or catcall her? It's really not that hard of a concept.

Where in my posts have I shown an inability to grasp this concept?

 

[Ariana]

Women being subjected to aggressive sexual advances is nothing new, but I feel like the cases of guarded women and timid men is much more prominent among the youth.

I completely agree with this statement, but I think the key to this problem is somewhere else and it doesn't have to do with fearmongering or the #MeToo movement at all.
We both live in patriarchal, even misogynistic societies - what fearmongering could there be? If women around here are cautious around men, it's not because of SJW, but because many of them have been groped at the age of 10 in schools and because they see other girls violated on a daily basis. Girls share those stories with each other because there's no one else to turn to and that's why they stick together at parties and public places. The big problem with sexual violence of not fearmongering, but victim shaming. I've been there, I've lived through that and today my girl and my students will be exposed to that, and I will keep warning girls to be careful and to watch each other's back, regardless of whether that seems like an overreaction to a guy.

 

[Perun]

Where in my posts have I shown an inability to grasp this concept?

Let's put it this way, I haven't seen anywhere in your post where you actually go beyond theoretical deliberations and try to see what is happening from a woman's perspective. As I said, I had a longer post written up that would have made my angle a lot clearer, but I felt that the final thought was worth preserving.

EDIT: I know this sounds harsh, but your response wasn't exactly sugarcoated either.

 

[The Flash]

I completely agree with this statement, but I think the key to this problem is somewhere else and it doesn't have to do with fearmongering or the #MeToo movement at all.
We both live in patriarchal, even misogynistic societies - what fearmongering could there be? If women around here are cautious around men, it's not because of SJW, but because many of them have been groped at the age of 10 in schools and because they see other girls violated on a daily basis. Girls share those stories with each other because there's no one else to turn to and that's why they stick together at parties and public places. The big problem with sexual violence of not fearmongering, but victim shaming. I've been there, I've lived through that and today my girl and my students will be exposed to that, and I will keep warning girls to be careful and to watch each other's back, regardless of whether that seems like an overreaction to a guy.

In case of Turkey, I'm looking at it from two different angles. The university environment, and the country in general. The country in general is toxic on this issue and could use a lot of awareness raising. I'm coming from the university environment angle in this particular conversation, because it's much more Westernized and reflects Western movements of the day to a wide extent.

 

[Ariana]

I understand that, but how does your Westernized mentality change the way women are treated in Turkey or Bulgaria? What I'm trying to say is that you can't blame women for being cautious and attribute their behaviour to fearmongering. There is a good reason for them being careful. How could they know you're a good guy who will treat them with respect if they don't know you? Young people have problems with communication, I agree, but this is the result of something else, not shining light on sexual harassment.

 

[The Flash]

I haven't seen anywhere in your post where you actually go beyond theoretical deliberations and try to see what is happening from a woman's perspective.

That was already being done from the other side of the argument. Should I have repeated the same talking points?

I have pointed out on multiple occasions that a possible aggressive blow back by men who find themselves desperate is my main concern on this issue. This was my last post before your response:

I think the possibility of an aggressive male push back against the guarded women/timid men dynamic is a massive concern. This is already happening to some extent, with men who are struggling to approach and establish connections with women desperately looking for help on pickup artist sites and in the manosphere and going the exact opposite direction and embracing aggression entirely. If such a push back becomes widespread, it could tarnish all the gains that have been made in terms of women's protection against sexual harrassment and assault.

This concern is entirely based on the well-being and safety of women in society.

 

[Perun]

Yeah, I'm not really sure you understand what I meant. You're being extremely academic about it, my question is, have you ever actually talked to a woman about this sort of thing?

 

[The Flash]

I understand that, but how does your Westernized mentality change the way women are treated in Turkey or Bulgaria?

It doesn't, you misunderstood my point. I don't have two mentalities on the issue, I have one, I'm saying my discussion in this particular case is based on my observations in the university environment, not the environment in Turkey. The environment in Turkey is completely different with many women not even reporting the negative treatment against them due to social pressures and some even seeing the abuse of men as the natural state of things.

Yeah, I'm not really sure you understand what I meant. You're being extremely academic about it, my question is, have you ever actually talked to a woman about this sort of thing?

Of course I have.