And what did they tell you?
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And what did they tell you?
Ariana
Black-and-white leopard
No, I didn't misunderstand that. I understood what you were saying, but I'm telling you that what you were saying was irrelevant to all those women out there that you may want to chat up. Because they just won't care until you make them care.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Nothing that I didn't already know. I don't know what answer you're looking for, and frankly, what you're accusing me of.
But I'm saying that the threshold for care -in an accusational sense- is lower now. To support my case on this I provided some prominent examples as well as an anectodal one. I simply think it's concerning to perpetuate the idea of male gaze, compliments or innuendo constituting sexual harrassment (Nuance notwithstanding, that is). Or disrupting the innocent until proven guilty principle when it comes to sexual harrassment accusations made against men.
And to make the distinction clear, I do not feel like the threshold for care has gotten lower or is too low when the topic at hand is Turkey in general. It's not low enough. I don't want to cause any misunderstanding on that end.
I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm suggesting to you that if you are talking about issues such as these, it would be best if you tried to take into account what women are actually experiencing from their perspective. I'll be really harsh now. You can't know what it's like for a woman because you're not a woman. Hence, your reply "Nothing that I didn't already know" suggests to me that either, you didn't ask the right things, or that you're being condescending towards women over this issue. To use a stupid "SJW" term, if on this basis you're telling women about sexual harassment, even if you don't condone it, this is what is called "mansplaining". And for the record, I went over this issue with my girlfriend before posting it.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I think it's case-by-case. In some ways yes. Catcalling being acceptable was a case of it being too high, for example. But I think looking at a woman from a far, approaching her and then paying her a compliment constituting sexual harrassment is a case of it being too low.
Or the case of Aziz Ansari, where he went on a date with a girl, they went to her house, made out for a while, and then Ansari took her to bed, upon which she said “I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you.", which Ansari responded by offering that they just "chill on the couch" instead, pointed to his penis, but nothing happened afterwards. He was then accused of sexual assault. This is also a case of it being too low. Or the case of Chris Hardwick, which was such a joke that it's not even worth getting into. Louis C.K., as I explained is a case with less consensus, but him being mentioned in the same breath as Harvey Weinstein does not set a good precedent.
Both Aziz Ansari and Chris Hardwick currently carry the stigma of being accused of sexual assault/harrassment. They did not deserve to have their names carried through the mud. Hardwick lost his gigs straight away, which perpetuated that he was guilty. Eventually he got his gigs back, but not everyone followed through with the story. I don't think this is an irrelevant problem. It becomes a bigger problem in the case of a non-celebrity, because the details don't get scrutinized to the same extent. It could easily be the thing that tilts a decision in a certain direction in a custody battle, for example.
Should we stop caring at all about the male perspective of issues, or the problems faced by men? Does it not matter that false accusations can ruin a man's reputation? Does the problems young men today have establishing relationships with girls mean nothing at all? Is it not concerning that the pickup artist industry is booming and is directing these desperate young men to aggressive tendencies? Does it not matter that the incel community is becoming larger every day?
If I didn't care about the women's side of the problem, I would not emphasize the importance of MeToo as a movement. I would not voice concern about cases that muddy the waters and take away from the legitimate goals of MeToo. I would not be concerned about what an aggressive blow back from desperate young men would mean for women in society.
Being a woman doesn't guarantee that your views towards what sexual harrassment are correct. There are women who think being beaten by your husband and giving him sexual gratification even if you don't want to is part of the course of being a woman. If I told her what sexual harrassment was, would she be correct because I'm a man and she's a woman? Last I checked, this was called an ad hominem.
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All these are serious issues, but it doesn't help if it comes down to men telling women what sexual harassment is when it is women who experience it. And yes, I do think the social upbringing of men has a lot to do with it. But blaming Feminazis and #MeToo (exaggerating to make a point here) is the easy way out for men who don't want to see that they need to work on themselves.
Also: Young men having problems establishing relationships is nothing new. That sort of thing was said when I was 20 already, and somehow, almost everyone I know from that time went on to either be in a permanent relationship or at least have a shag every once in a while. The whole pickup artist thing was around then too, we're only hearing about it more now because of social media and the fact that it's been turned to money lately. Perhaps the term "pickup artist" wasn't around then, but the names "Don Juan", "Gigolo" and "Casanova" were. Actually, they've been around for much longer.Feminists were much more radical in 1980 than they are now, also. It's all not as recent as you may think. Social media brings a different dynamic to it, agreed, but not *that* different.
I would add that if the idea of women choosing not to easily fuck men causes some men to become violent incel terrorists, then the problem is with those men, not the women or the movement giving women courage to decrease their sexual availability.
Ariana
Black-and-white leopard
I have a problem with this point of view, because the mindset of a domestic violence victim cannot be compared to the reasoning of a person like yourself, so this is a completely different situation.
Also, why should women take the blame for the growth of the incel community? Ah, LooseCannon beat me to it.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I agree on that point. In general, most men who blame the women for their shortcomings in life are losers. But that doesn't necessarily mean that societal changes in the way we see male/female relationship doesn't impact anything. Sure, it's far from being the biggest factor, but it does come into play.
I'm going to respectfully disagree on this. I think young people in general have more problems establishing relationships these days and are more isolated. Empirical research supports this claim. Obviously, this extends to the courtship side of things as well.
I think it's important to examine what drives them to this point in order to prevent them from being larger in numbers. It is going to end up hurting women in the long run.
It does render the mansplaining argument a fallacy, though.
[citation needed]
So women should be more promiscuous regardless of their desires so that men don't become incels? That's literally insane.
Ariana
Black-and-white leopard
Something else - I have several female friends around my age that have either never had a relationship or haven't had one in 10-15 years. None of them has gone aggressive, has threatened anyone, or at any occasion has grabbed a man by the package because she has been denied intimacy.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
That is not what I said, stop putting words in my mouth.
I don't believe men and women, on average, have the same levels of aggression.
The causes of the incel movement are men believing they are entitled to sex, so how do you propose fixing that other than giving those men more access to sex?
I mean, maybe teaching them how to be actual members of society, but hey.
Ariana
Black-and-white leopard
Don't tell me you're saying that society as a whole should shift its norms to accommodate its most aggressive members.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13607863.2017.1399345?journalCode=camh20
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-43711606
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...media-personal-interactions-column/574701002/
https://www.npr.org/sections/health...nely-too-much-time-on-social-media-may-be-why
There are many other studies on the topic. Jonathan Haidt actually wrote a book on the very topic, I think.
You need to look into Incel communities and the Manosphere, LC. My concerns are tied to my research on them. Has been since the beginning of this discussion. Yes, believing that they are entitled to sex is the main reason. But their state of helplessness is exacerbated by each case I've mentioned. Some people are profitting off them, too. These are very politically charged groups, sex isn't the only issue.
Take this for example: When lines between regular courtship and harrassment, and harrassment and assault are blurred, how do you think this impacts the behaviour of people in such communities?
Of course not. Just pointing out a reason for the discrepancy. The same discrepancy is also reflected in the number of prisoners.
At the risk of sounding condescending: I understand where you are coming from, because these same things were said fifteen years ago already, and I believed them. Including the empirical research part. I believe you that this research exists, I'm just telling you it's nothing new. Every new generation is the loneliest ever, the one with the biggest issues, etc. Research like this existed when my parents were dating. Even back in the 1920s, people were already talking about this.
I'm an old fart, and therefore I can talk a little bit more from life experience. I did the dating thing, I had my share of frustration, and I had peers who went through the same thing. We didn't have Facebook, but we had the internet and tv shows. The general consensus then was that establishing relationships "like in the good old times" didn't happen anymore and at the same time, people were selling strategies to knock up chicks and be awesome. I saw a film in 2004 or 2005 (on a date, ironically) called "Hitch" in which Will Smith played a date doctor. He said basically the same things as pickup artists say these days, and nothing in the film was news to us.
I will concede a couple of points to you: 1), social media is a new thing, and a lot of the old "chatting up" thing has been replaced by things such as Tinder. We had dating websites back in the day, but it was still fresh territory. 2), Social anxiety is talked a lot more about than it was in my day. It was already a topic, but it was commonly said that it's a largely underrated problem. Today, it almost seems as if everybody has anxiety issues, to the point that it's becoming almost a fad, and I think a lot of people who don't actually have such issues think they do because it's a comfortable thing to blame their shortcomings on. 3), The public discourse has been radicalised in very recent years thanks to things like GamerGate and #MeToo, but just how big of a general social impact it has had is actually not clear to me. Just one example: I first heard about GamerGate two years ago, long after it was over. I don't think anybody I know in Real Life has heard of GamerGate. But if you look on certain YouTube channels or blog posts, it's made to be the biggest social upheaval since the French Revolution. So... get off the internet for a while and see what's happening in real life. I know #MeToo is bigger, but how much does it actually affect our lives? University campuses especially are enclosed spaces, and what happens there often does not leave the campus. A lot of the things that were the most important things in the world in my student years were entirely unknown to people who never entered my university, and even those people who were super involved in student protests, rights movements and political party foundings... hardly remember anything about it ten years down the line. I know that because I've been bringing this up in conversations with such people recently. It's gotten a bit more radical in the last couple of years, as I said, but still, it's not as big as it seems to be when you're in it.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I just doubt that Per. Not your experience, but the current state of the pickup artist thing. There are supremely popular pickup artists out there actively condoning rape. They've married into political issues. Certain Canadian fellow formed a chauvinist men's group and they were associated with alt-right groups and recently got named a Hate Group by SPLC. Not talking small numbers here. The so-called "Red Pill" is becoming huge among Gen Z youth. You should have come across it by now.
I don't know. I'll admit that I'm a bit lost because I am going through a very nihilistic and depressed period. I ponder whether we should just go back to being hunter-gatherers every day. It's not good. I should probably take this into the Mental Health thread now.
We drank, smoked, watched a movie and fell asleep on each other.