European Politics

It's not going exactly the same. Anyway, let's not restrict it. It's not harmful (yet ;) ).

Besides, this is what goes on in Europe, or European politics, for that matter.
...
Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel warned the group was becoming increasingly radical.

“PEGIDA has become a right-wing populist movement and with some parts visibly a right-wing extremist movement,” he told the Suddeutsche Zeitung newspaper on Tuesday. “PEGIDA has become a reservoir for racist xenophobia.”

Gabriel said the group was using Nazi rhetoric and questioning the basic principles of democracy.

Volker Kauder, the Christian Democrats’ parliamentary group leader, told the Passauer Neuen Pressed daily that Germany needed to be resolute against hate speech and violence.

Yasmin Fahimi, secretary general of the Social Democrats, called on police and intelligence agencies to closely monitor right-wing elements within PEGIDA. ...
The impact of the huge stream of refugees is big. The biggest topic of our continent.
 
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Mosh said:
Thought I somehow opened an old thread. Seriously this is the exact same discussion as before. Same participants, same rhetoric, everything! :p
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Not quite. Me and Zare were in that discussion as well. The rhetoric was indeed the same though, it was a Dutch politician's racist remarks on Muslims in the one before, now it's a German writer's racist remarks on Muslims.

I don't believe in absolute free speech. I feel like it undervalues the influence speech has on people. One guy speaking his mind is not at all times "one guy speaking his mind". Not punishing that one guy can lead to thousands saying the same thing, forming a natural alliance and they may act on it as a result. If one influential guy says "People X are untermenschen and should be exterminated" and you don't punish it, People Y who have personal beef with People X are very possible to see it as condoning it and start allying themselves with that guy on a thought level. Thought is what creates acts, allied thought is very likely to lead into acts.

Of course, in an ideal world, you'd rather not have People Y having personal beef with People X at all, so the "condoning of hatred" is not a problem in the first place. But it's never an ideal world.
 
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@Forostar We are just going to have to disagree on this ... I'd rather not live in some kind of mind control state. It is bad enough with people's daily "outrages" over everything and anything. I'd rather have these people out in the open than in some basement talking to one another .. unless you are planning on bugging everyone's house in case someone says something you think might be offensive to someone. You are on a very slippery slope
 
Forostar said:
After the crowd responded with shouts of "resistance, resistance," Pirincci said, "Of course there are other alternatives - but the concentration camps are unfortunately out of action at the moment." The crowd applauded and laughed at that, though they eventually called on the writer to stop after his speech continued for another 20 minutes.
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This quote is out of context. What Pirincci said was no bit less hateful, but he did not say that immigrants or Muslims should go to concentration camps, as everybody claims. He said (paraphrased), that the politicians have no respect for their own people, that they would suggest for Germans to emigrate if they do not agree with politics, and that there are no alternatives because the concentration camps are "unfortunately" (from the point of view of the politicians) out of action.

What he said was wrong, hateful, racist and all that, but I don't see any benefit in misquoting it or misinterpreting what he said. This only helps him because he can say he is not being understood properly.

If you speak German, here's an article about this: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/...if-pirincci-so-widerwaertig-war/12479374.html
 
I support freedom of speech. I also support banning people from this forum. This forum is 100% private property (owned by @Jon) and he has empowered the moderators to keep peace as he sees fit. We can disinvite whomever we want. It's the difference between protesting abortion on my front lawn and on the front lawn of Parliament.
 
I'd like to second what LC said; you cannot expect full democracy even in a full democracy all the time. What about that case of an public service employee in USA (probably) that denied marriage or abortion to someone? Well you can have an opinion, and state it, you don't even have to speak to gays or women who want abortion, whatever, but as soon as you signed that employee contract your preferences are out of the window.

The Flash said:
I don't believe in absolute free speech. I feel like it undervalues the influence speech has on people. One guy speaking his mind is not at all times "one guy speaking his mind". Not punishing that one guy can lead to thousands saying the same thing, forming a natural alliance and they may act on it as a result. If one influential guy says "People X are untermenschen and should be exterminated" and you don't punish it, People Y who have personal beef with People X are very possible to see it as condoning it and start allying themselves with that guy on a thought level. Thought is what creates acts, allied thought is very likely to lead into acts.
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Agreed. But..there's a better solution, if you ask me.
Institutions need to work. If someone is propagating that sort of stuff, you need to "follow him". E.g. police needs to mark him down and actually observe. Saying all gypsies should be deported/shot on the forum would not mean you get a sentence, but someone with a proper authority, through proper channels, should keep an eye for you. Conspiring to actually do a crime - that's where law enforcement comes it.

Extremism is handled through education but unfortunately neither education institutions or law enforcement institutions are looking to get their job done.
 
Yeah, I agree. By punishment I don't mean jailing people straight away or anything. But you can't ignore it completely either, gotta keep a close eye on it.
 
Better say the PKK is a terrorist group (which of course they are) ... or else!

ISTANBUL/DIYARBAKIR (Reuters) - A top Kurdish lawyer in conflict-riven southeast Turkey faces trial after saying the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), whose guerrillas are battling Turkish security forces, is not a terrorist group.

Police detained Tahir Elci, who heads the bar association of Diyarbakir province in southeast Turkey, during a pre-dawn raid on Tuesday on his office. An Istanbul court later ordered his release pending the trial, on condition that he not leave the country and that he report regularly to the authorities, his lawyer Mehmet Emin Aktar said.

The date of his trial will be set at a later date.

.....

Elci's comments about the PKK, made on CNN Turk TV last week, infuriated state prosecutors who had wanted him kept in detention until his trial.

"Even if some of the PKK's acts have a terrorist character, the PKK is an armed political movement," Elci said during the TV discussion program. "It is a political movement with political demands and with very strong support in society."

Police detained him before dawn on Tuesday in the city of Diyarbakir. Supporters, including lawyers and local politicians, gathered at his office to chant "pressure will not intimidate us", witnesses said.

Elci was then flown to Istanbul for his court appearance.
 
Sheer stupidity, that one. He's free to speak his mind on the situation, absolutely no reason to send him to court. It was simply his observation on matters, it's not like he did anything that condones violence or perpetuates the idea of violence, which is as I said before, where I draw the line in freedom of speech. (Even if he did, it still is no reason to take him to court. Keeping a close eye on his actions and statements in the future would be the way to go in that case)

What he said is pretty ridiculous, though. He argued that PKK don't attack civilians. Just today they blew up a hospital.
 
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One thing you can take away from me as we approach the Turkish general election: Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu (CHP) is the guy you want to win this election. The more I hear him talk, the more impressed I am. Shining like a diamond in the rough that is Turkish politics.

Very calm, collected, cooperative social democratic politician. That's a rarity here.
 
What happened today in Poland is a disgrace. The country is an example of doing well economically. Since they've been in the EU, but also earlier, it went better and better....

And now, the conservative and nationalistic opposition Law and Justice party has won parliamentary elections. With enough seats to govern alone. No left wing parties have enough voted to be in parliament.

These are some of the things their leader Kaczynski has said:

"There are already signs of emergence of diseases that are highly dangerous and have not been seen in Europe for a long time: cholera on the Greek islands, dysentery in Vienna. There is also talk about other, even more severe diseases," he said.

"Also there are some differences related to geography, various parasites, protozoa that are common and are not dangerous in the bodies of these people, (but) may be dangerous here. Which doesn't mean there is a need to discriminate anyone, but you need to check."

European health authorities have not reported any evidence of widespread outbreaks of infectious diseases in parts of Europe with high numbers of migrants.

Last month, Warsaw backed a European Union plan to share out 120,000 refugees across the 28-nation bloc. Under the plan Poland will take in 4,500 refugees, adding to some 2,000 it has already accepted.

But senior PiS officials have suggested they would oppose the relocation of migrants from war-torn Syria or Iraq to Poland if they win power, raising the prospect of further battles in Brussels on the politically toxic refugee issue.
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I find it racist, as if the Poles are perfect people and they look down upon others. My Polish wife is quite upset, and I am ... well disgusted.
They got so much from Europe, and now, they give back so little. They are the most Catholic nation in the world. Love thy neighbour my ass. They only care about themselves.

Poland is a xenophobic shit country, full of dumb people. The big party that won today is called PiS. Piss party for sure. Looks like we're going to have a second Hungary, people.
 
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On the other side of things, Sweden is expecting up to 190,000 refugees this year (to a population of 9,5 million), mostly from Syria.

Hard to say, but that could be too many. We have the space and economy, but I'm not sure the goodwill will last. Only time will tell. You basically have two sides to choose between, those who seemingly don't like a limit at all and open borders and those who don't really want immigration at all. Mainstream media and the parliament is dominated by the former, but the Sweden Democrats gets increasing support in every poll and buildings intended to house newly arrived are torched each day. The unwillingness to acknowledge that there actually exists viewpoints in between these two extremes is what worries me most. Seems like a perfect situation for extremists to attract followers and gain influence.

We sadly had our first school killing this past week. A 21 year old dressed as a Nazi entered a school armed with a sword and slashed down non-ethnic Swedes before he was killed by the police, killing 2 and injuring another 2.
 
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