DAWSON 1 YEAR ON

Conversely, I actually don’t mind Shirley’s sound! I guess the only criticism I can level at it is that there’s not much in the way of dynamics, ala Birch. But sonically, I’m into it. I recognise I’m pretty much alone in this!
 
Vaenyr said:
See what I wrote above. Stop fighting strawmen and engage with what I'm actually stating. There's overlap between those tours. Take The Trooper or Wasted Years and directly compare them. Nicko had enormous timing issues and fluctuations. Simon very clearly does not. This is not a subjective assessment, this is simply critical analysis of their performances. Which is completely different than claiming "Nicko and Clive are objectively better than Simon".


As I've literally stated multiple timed already it is perfectly valid to prefer one over the other, no matter which direction. But stating their own subjective preference as an objective fact is delusional. I don't know how often I need to repeat this, it's really not a difficult argument. I'm afraid y'all are only glossing over the posts instead of properly reading and parsing what's written.
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@Kurt Barlow , and many of us, have pointed out that Simon has "timing issues and fluctuations. This is not a subjective assessment, this is simply critical analysis of their performances".
 
Eduardo Cabeza said:
@Kurt Barlow , and many of us, have pointed out that Simon has "timing issues and fluctuations. This is not a subjective assessment, this is simply critical analysis of their performances".
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It is a prime example of intersubjectivity. There are no objective critical analysises.

Aspire to objectively assessing the data and others reach the same conclusion based on the same data/whatever = intersubjective consensus.

Might seem nitpicking, but it's rather important to acknowledge that we can't really objectively gauge things (particularly aspects of interconnected things), and not quality of performances. We can try our best though with the data and metrics we use.
 
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Kurt Barlow said:
There is no reason to expect Dawson to be kept if push back is significant. Blaze Bayley managed 2 albums before someone got thru to Steve.
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Sadly, the pressure would never be that strong. I don't think any of the band members want to risk their position with a seismic discussion when Maiden is looking at mega-profitable plans ahead.

Casual fans don't care about drums as much as vocals, so Simon will most probably stay until the end... Maybe it ends up hurting if he doesn't get any better, but it would take time for a big bunch of the audience to say "no more." There are people, like me, who won't go to see them with him behind the drums, unless they bring the most radical left-field setlist —Be Quick or Be Dead, Only the Good Die Young, No Prayer for the Dying... you get the idea— but it would take a couple more tours for this to be really noticeable in ticket sales, and it does not look like the band will be around longer than that.
 
Yax said:
It is a prime example of intersubjectivity. There are no objective critical analysises.

Aspire to objectively assessing the data and others reach the same conclusion based on the same data/whatever = intersubjective consensus.

Might seem nitpicking, but it's rather important to acknowledge that we can't really objectively gauge things (particularly aspects of interconnected things), and not quality of performances. We can try our best though with the data and metrics we use.
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My example was only aimed at showing how double-sided @Vaenyr's argument was.

His criticism was objective; ours wasn't.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
The likely case is m

joe Lazarus is Harris’ nephew. Joe has grown up with Maiden.
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Your arguments would be more convincing if you didn't keep bringing up Joe Lazarus. Then people might think, “That must be a friend of Joe's or his dad,” haha.
And if it really is that you don't like how Maiden sounds anymore, it shouldn't matter.
You don't have to be a Maiden fan who has spent years practicing Maiden songs for the role, just listen to Rush with Anika Nilles.
 
weebaggy said:
Maiden were never going to go on tour with a young lad bouncing about the place. They are all pensioners, it was always going to be someone who fit the personality dynamics above anything else.
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I am not surprised by how Iron Maiden went about finding their new drummer. That is how they operate.
But I don't like that retirement age is always given as the reason.
There are so many counterexamples of “old” bands that are clearly in the final phase of their careers. They have still brought in a young member and taken a risk. Rush is just the latest example.
So that is not areasonwhy that is unlikely or impossible.

PS: The new young member could have bounced together with Janick.
 
MaryPelon said:
Your arguments would be more convincing if you didn't keep bringing up Joe Lazarus. Then people might think, “That must be a friend of Joe's or his dad,” haha.
And if it really is that you don't like how Maiden sounds anymore, it shouldn't matter.
You don't have to be a Maiden fan who has spent years practicing Maiden songs for the role, just listen to Rush with Anika Nilles.
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He was on their doorstep. Had been groomed for the gig for many years.

But as we’ve established, Iron Maiden could’ve picked the very best of the best. For us, the fans. We deserve Simon Dawson, apparently.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
He was on their doorstep. Had been groomed for the gig for many years.

But as we’ve established, Iron Maiden could’ve picked the very best of the best. For us, the fans. We deserve Simon Dawson, apparently.
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Never met him. I’m a Maiden fan, I’ve been following him for years. Check the comments on his videos, and you’ll see a similar demographic.
 
Lego said:
I am not taking the piss.

Until we have a statistically sound analysis of a random sample across both tours to compare, you CANNOT unequivocally state that Nicko's tempos fluctuated more than Simon's, or that his performances were objectively inferior.

Cherrypicking some examples of Adrian getting pissed off when Nicko fucked up in 23-24, alongside some examples of Simon NOT fucking up in 25-26, is not enough to conclude this.

And even if it is proven to be true, tempo is NOT the only criteria by which a performance can be judged, so all you'll have proven is that Nicko's tempos fluctuated more. Not that his performances are "objectively worse".

I AGREE with you it's ridiculous to say that any musician is objectively worse than any other. But it is ALSO ridiculous to say that any given performance is objectively worse than any other.
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As I said, unlike some other "objective facts" thrown around the last couple of days, I can substantiate my claims once I'm back on my computer ;)

Lego said:
Why is it so hard for you to just admit that you PREFER Simon's tempos and/or performances on RFYL to Nicko's tempos and/or performances on FP? It's a perfectly valid opinion.
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I never said that I prefer Simon's tempos or performances. I'm stating the blindingly obvious, that he's more consistent than Nicko was during TFP. This isn't controversial and it is childish to reguse such a simple fact.

Lego said:
Why do you NEED to try and prove it
objectively?
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I don't "need" to prove anything. I'm not the one who tried passing off their subjective experience as universal truth and "fact". The one thing that I mentioned, is something that is easily objectively quantifiable.

Eduardo Cabeza said:
@Kurt Barlow , and many of us, have pointed out that Simon has "timing issues and fluctuations. This is not a subjective assessment, this is simply critical analysis of their performances".
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As does every other member of Maiden. We were talking about the amount of deviation. Simon is nowhere close in fluctuation as Nicko was on TFP. Hell, Nicko has always been wildly inconsistent and fluctuated even in the studio (listen to The Wicker Man with a metronome for a fun time).

I never claimed Simon has no fluctuations. I'm saying that he's more consistent than Nicko.

Eduardo Cabeza said:
My example was only aimed at showing how double-sided @Vaenyr's argument was.

His criticism was objective; ours wasn't.
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No, that's a misreading of the argument and I can't believe that I have to type it out once again, despite it being so simple:

Comparing the consistency in tempos between two drummers is something that can be accurately measured with actual numbers. We can run statistics and measure who deviates more. That is quite literally objective.

On the other hand, saying "Simon is objectively a worse drummer than Nicko and Clive" just because Kurt doesn't like Simon and made an account purely devoted to hating on Simon, is simply nonsensical. He can subjectively prefer one or the other. He is allowed to hate Simon. But making such a generalization is simply ludicrous.

Like, do you genuinely, honestly, not see the difference between those situations? Forget for a second who posted what. One is a statement with specific criteria (two drummers playing the same song and being judged on their adherence to the song's tempo) and the other is a subjective comparison between artists being passed as "fact". Seriously, do you really not see the difference?

Let's see how many times I have to repeat this until everyone finally gets it.
 
Why is the focus on Simon being better than Nicko post-stroke? Maiden are about the biggest metal band in the world, they could currently be touring with a drummer as good as Nicko in his prime!

Why settle? Especially for a drummer who is part of making the band sound actually bad IN MY OPINION. It’s so unambitious.
 
Vaenyr said:
As I said, unlike some other "objective facts" thrown around the last couple of days, I can substantiate my claims once I'm back on my computer ;)


I never said that I prefer Simon's tempos or performances. I'm stating the blindingly obvious, that he's more consistent than Nicko was during TFP. This isn't controversial and it is childish to reguse such a simple fact.


I don't "need" to prove anything. I'm not the one who tried passing off their subjective experience as universal truth and "fact". The one thing that I mentioned, is something that is easily objectively quantifiable.


As does every other member of Maiden. We were talking about the amount of deviation. Simon is nowhere close in fluctuation as Nicko was on TFP. Hell, Nicko has always been wildly inconsistent and fluctuated even in the studio (listen to The Wicker Man with a metronome for a fun time).

I never claimed Simon has no fluctuations. I'm saying that he's more consistent than Nicko.


No, that's a misreading of the argument and I can't believe that I have to type it out once again, despite it being so simple:

Comparing the consistency in tempos between two drummers is something that can be accurately measured with actual numbers. We can run statistics and measure who deviates more. That is quite literally objective.

On the other hand, saying "Simon is objectively a worse drummer than Nicko and Clive" just because Kurt doesn't like Simon and made an account purely devoted to hating on Simon, is simply nonsensical. He can subjectively prefer one or the other. He is allowed to hate Simon. But making such a generalization is simply ludicrous.

Like, do you genuinely, honestly, not see the difference between those situations? Forget for a second who posted what. One is a statement with specific criteria (two drummers playing the same song and being judged on their adherence to the song's tempo) and the other is a subjective comparison between artists being passed as "fact". Seriously, do you really not see the difference?

Let's see how many times I have to repeat this until everyone finally gets it.
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Dude, don't lose time on something so obvious as demonstrating that tempo is measurable. Everyone knows that. Many people also know that tempo can flow if done correctly, and that good drummers, like Nicko on «The Wicker Man», can surf tempo, breathing life into a song —not Simon's case though.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
Joe Lazarus is 38 years old. You speak of him like he a reckless teen. He’s a pro. There’s a reason he’s gigging every night of the week.
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We all know how old he is, I literally walked passed Joe two weeks ago in London Stadium as we were walking to the Metallica Snakepit. He has more flecks of grey in his hair than I do, I don't think anyone guesses he is a 'reckless teen' !!! Doh.

Still dodging the point Kurt Barlow: bitching about Dawson's live drumming completely misses the point as to the really big issues facing maiden from hereonin.

Flip it round: they go into the studio and the lineup change is a very positive thing for them, so it could go in a number of ways from now on.
 
Simon is playing better than the first leg, but he is clearly a very different drummer than Nicko (he is unique) and wants to play the songs his way (which is normal, like Nicko did with the Clive songs), a simplified way. He lacks the swing/flair (especially for a song like Trooper), but I like the steady beat he brought. He is the drummer they want, they didn't want a Nicko copy (like Joe, who knows if he was really under consideration, maybe the age or something, or that Simon got lucky because he was Nicko's backup during TFP tour), and Steve chose a drummer he has played it. Makes sense. It won't be the same no matter the choice, Nicko is only one, you can't really replace him, the way he plays the songs is ingrained in our hearts (that's why it's tough to have a good perspective sometimes)... BUT I admit the tempo should be faster.

I can't really blame him for the tempo, we know that Bruce and Adrian prefer to play (especially some songs) slower live, although he's not a young drummer (that's why it's difficult to compare him to Bruno Valverde or Dave Moreno, although Nigel Glocker, Scott Travis and Lars are still going strong). I think Nicko was right to play the songs faster live, but Simon definitely brought a needed energy to the band (since 2019).
Some songs are played at their slower studio tempo, but for example Fear and Wasted aren't, which isn't cool for me. But they played Fear slower with Nicko too. It's just that some songs need to be played faster live (or parts of them like in Rime or Infinite). He definitely has power, for example his drumming on Phantom (probably the only song I like his playing more than Nicko's) and Aces at the end of the set. I hope the official live release will have a good drum sound (especially the cymbals). I think he's doing more than a solid job - especially for this stage of Maiden's career. Simon has a great experience, but maybe not in long tours. Let's also not forget that a person's characters is always important in this decisions, and Simon seems like a very nice person. And Maiden don't want ''big'' names. I'm not sure if they needed to find a better drummer (that much; difficult task), Simon should play faster and everything will be fine. Younger is a different matter.

I agree with the others that his ''real test'' will be in the studio to say, when he creates his own drumming vision for the songs.
 
Kalata said:
Simon is playing better than the first leg, but he is clearly a very different drummer than Nicko (he is unique) and wants to play the songs his way (which is normal, like Nicko did with the Clive songs), a simplified way. He lacks the swing/flair (especially for a song like Trooper), but I like the steady beat he brought. He is the drummer they want, they didn't want a Nicko copy (like Joe, who knows if he was really under consideration, maybe the age or something, or that Simon got lucky because he was Nicko's backup during TFP tour), and Steve chose a drummer he has played it. Makes sense. It won't be the same no matter the choice, Nicko is only one, you can't really replace him, the way he plays the songs is ingrained in our hearts (that's why it's tough to have a good perspective sometimes)... BUT I admit the tempo should be faster.

I can't really blame him for the tempo, we know that Bruce and Adrian prefer to play (especially some songs) slower live, although he's not a young drummer (that's why it's difficult to compare him to Bruno Valverde or Dave Moreno, although Nigel Glocker, Scott Travis and Lars are still going strong). I think Nicko was right to play the songs faster live, but Simon definitely brought a needed energy to the band (since 2019).
Some songs are played at their slower studio tempo, but for example Fear and Wasted aren't, which isn't cool for me. But they played Fear slower with Nicko too. It's just that some songs need to be played faster live (or parts of them like in Rime or Infinite). He definitely has power, for example his drumming on Phantom (probably the only song I like his playing more than Nicko's) and Aces at the end of the set. I hope the official live release will have a good drum sound (especially the cymbals). I think he's doing more than a solid job - especially for this stage of Maiden's career. Simon has a great experience, but maybe not in long tours. Let's also not forget that a person's characters is always important in this decisions, and Simon seems like a very nice person. And Maiden don't want ''big'' names. I'm not sure if they needed to find a better drummer (that much; difficult task), Simon should play faster and everything will be fine. Younger is a different matter.

I agree with the others that his ''real test'' will be in the studio to say, when he creates his own drumming vision for the songs.
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They dont want big names and want somebody who can do the job and get along in tour for the years they have in the future
 
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