DAWSON 1 YEAR ON

Kurt Barlow said:
This is absolutely wild.

I know you guys have loyalty to the band, but the idea that it doesn’t matter who plays drums on the old stuff is just not a mindset I can get behind.
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I have to say, I read your opinion as rather 'wild' as well!

My beef with the current tour is not the drummer, but the whole tour concept: having seen Early Days, SBIT, ME etc this tour doesn't quite feel like the home run it should. Just for me, I should add, delighted if its a dream setlist for others and especially casual fans. Simon's drumming is very much not my priority concern.

The history tours always worked when there was a new tour around the corner. But there isn't anything around the corner, so I say again: there are BIGGER PROBLEMS AT HAND than your concerns around Simon's drumming.

Those bigger concerns relate to no new maiden music, plus the rights sales for legacy and presumably non-music output. Which risks the 'Disney Phase' of Eddie in the way Star Wars output multiplied and multiplied out of control (average analogy but you get my point).

Sure, Simon's drum roll at the start of Murders wasn't always brilliant, but neither are Bruce's vocals on Aces Low - so it is wild to me that you would pick your targets selectively regarding the current live show.
 
Helmuth Von Moltke said:
Since there isn't anything around the corner, I say again: there are BIGGER PROBLEMS AT HAND than your concerns around Simon's drumming. Those bigger concerns relate to no new maiden music and the rights sales for legacy and presumably non-music output.
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What seems a plausible scenario going on in fact? Just curious.
 
Lego said:
Examples? I said empirical data.

How big is your sample size? What's your sampling criteria? Do you have enough data to account for outliers and reach statistical significance in your analysis?

Do we even agree on the criteria for what "good" or "bad" timekeeping looks like? What if I prefer the tempos that Nicko chooses to the ones that he is "supposed" to play?

All I'm trying to say is it's a bit ridiculous for you to come in here and chastise people for stating it's a "fact" that Nicko is better than Simon, only to turn around and say "ackshully I can PROVE OBJECTIVELY that Nicko's performances were worse than Simon's". Art is subjective, as you said- and "art" is not just the performer, but also the individual performance, AND the criteria that the audience uses to evaluate it.
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And we’re seriously gonna compare the work of a man who just suffered a stroke to the man who replaced him? That’s fucking ghoulish. Absolute idiot.
Helmuth Von Moltke said:
I have to say, I read your opinion as rather 'wild' as well!

My beef with the current tour is not the drummer, but the whole tour concept: having seen Early Days, SBIT, ME etc this tour doesn't quite feel like the home run it should. Just for me, I should add, delighted if its a dream setlist for others and especially casual fans. Simon's drumming is very much not my priority concern.

The history tours always worked when there was a new tour around the corner. But there isn't anything around the corner, so I say again: there are BIGGER PROBLEMS AT HAND than your concerns around Simon's drumming.

Those bigger concerns relate to no new maiden music, plus the rights sales for legacy and presumably non-music output. Which risks the 'Disney Phase' of Eddie in the way Star Wars output multiplied and multiplied out of control (average analogy but you get my point).

Sure, Simon's drum roll at the start of Murders wasn't always brilliant, but neither are Bruce's vocals on Aces Low - so it is wild to me that you would pick your targets selectively regarding the current live show.
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I’m glad you don’t see it as a problem.

I was excited at the prospect of the RFYL tour. I prefer the 80s stuff in all honesty, and it was absolutely justified, given the 50th anniversary. They’d have been stupid to not celebrate that milestone.

I couldn’t face the shows as I knew Dawson couldn’t cut it. I gave him a year before I opened my mouth. Again, some may disagree, and I’m happy for them. I think he’s ruined the sound of the band.

IN MY OPINION (sorry, I have to put that or people think I’m telling them what to think)
 
UpTheIrons said:
I really think it boils down to a scenario as simple as this:

Simon is 'on retainer' as the back-up drummer on the Future Past Tour because Steve is already taking British Lion along to play side shows and it means the rhythm section are used to playing with each other.

As per an interview with Bruce last year, the band rehearse with Simon on an off-day during the tour, everyone thinks it goes great and that Simon is 'stage ready'.

Nicko stands down at the end of the tour, Simon is the automatic replacement on account of the above.

In real life, circumstances, interpersonal relationships and sheer convenience play a big part and it is not a case of simply picking a drummer with the best stat block like an RPG party member. Who knows? Maybe if Joe Lazarus had been part of the Maiden crew during TFP he might have ended up being the replacement.
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This is why I'm surprised at some of the reactions in here. Anyone following Maiden for any serious length of time shouldn't have been surprised at this appointment.

Maiden are safe. They do things in their own slow, repetitive and predictable way.

They value reliability and routine above just about anything else. None of that is meant as criticism. It's just the way they've always been.

Maiden were never going to go on tour with a young lad bouncing about the place. They are all pensioners, it was always going to be someone who fit the personality dynamics above anything else.

Joe Lazarus would have stuck out, he would have been a weird fit. I'm sure he's an incredible drummer but it would have been a very surprising choice had he been given the gig.

Simon's doing alright. Boy's won the lottery and I'm chuffed for him.
 
Dick Brucinson said:
What seems a plausible scenario going on in fact? Just curious.
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One plausible scenario is there is no new album, and instead there is a stream of legacy output using the Pophouse deal. Probably at a guess including 'fan experiences' as well as merch. The band could play a perfunctory few mega-shows a year in major cities for as long as they like to keep the band somewhat active.

Or, we do get a new album plus some of the above.

Maiden is at a genuine fork in the road, for the first time since Blaze joined and then Bruce/Adrian rejoined. It could go in a number of different ways from now.

All of which is why I don't as it turns out give much of a shit about Dawson's drumming, because when all is said and done the actual entity that is Iron Maiden seems to be in a really undecided sunset era now.
 
onurb said:
Nicko messed it aswell, would be good if the problem were just this.
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It isn't the only example - just like Bruce isn't only messing up Aces Low this tour.

That's the point of examples; noone expects them to be fully representative of the whole matter at hand but illustrative instead.
 
weebaggy said:
This is why I'm surprised at some of the reactions in here. Anyone following Maiden for any serious length of time shouldn't have been surprised at this appointment.

Maiden are safe. They do things in their own slow, repetitive and predictable way.

They value reliability and routine above just about anything else. None of that is meant as criticism. It's just the way they've always been.

Maiden were never going to go on tour with a young lad bouncing about the place. They are all pensioners, it was always going to be someone who fit the personality dynamics above anything else.

Joe Lazarus would have stuck out, he would have been a weird fit. I'm sure he's an incredible drummer but it would have been a very surprising choice had he been given the gig.

Simon's doing alright. Boy's won the lottery and I'm chuffed for him.
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Joe Lazarus is 38 years old. You speak of him like he a reckless teen. He’s a pro. There’s a reason he’s gigging every night of the week.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
IN MY OPINION (sorry, I have to put that or people think I’m telling them what to think)
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In fairness, I think you've made your opinion clear on the topic with 48 posts on the topic in a day (there'll be probably a couple of more posts added in the time it takes me to write this one).

I think you are either a relation or mate of Joe Lazarus making bad faith posts.
 
srfc said:
In fairness, I think you've made your opinion clear on the topic with 48 posts on the topic in a day (there'll be probably a couple of more posts added in the time it takes me to write this one).

I think you are either a relation or mate of Joe Lazarus making bad faith posts.
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What exactly do you mean by ‘bad faith’?
 
never met JL. I follow his insta. I’m a fan of some of the bands he plays for. He’s a good dude, according to anyone who’s met him. He’s got a reputation for being easy to work with, and just generally being lovely.
srfc said:
I think you're motivated more by loyalty to Joe Lazarus than anything else
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i have a loyalty to Iron Maiden which is being tested by the appointment of a pub drummer in a stadium rock band.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
Joe Lazarus is 38 years old. You speak of him like he a reckless teen. He’s a pro. There’s a reason he’s gigging every night of the week.
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I know he's a great drummer, he's also 30 years younger than the rest of the band.

For many bands that would be ok, such as Rush.

Maiden are very conservative and Joe would have been a strange fit.

Don't get me wrong if he'd have gotten the gig he'd have done amazing I'm sure.

I'm just pointing out likely reasons why Simon got the gig and Joe didn't.
 
All of the criticisms leveled at Simon could (and have been) leveled at Kevin Shirley in terms of production from at least The Final Frontier onward. Are there probably technically superior individuals out there? Sure, but these are the ones that the band (particularly Steve) are comfortable working with and consider to be good enough.
 
Re Shirley, that is something Steve mostly owns, I think. Shirley is co-producing and Steve is very hands on with what he wants in the mix. The fact that Shirley have countless better sounding albums without Maiden than TBoS and Senjutsu speaks volumes. Re TFF, that is mostly a reverb problem, which H was right about in my view, and Steve and Shirley wrong.
 
Lego said:
Examples? I said empirical data.

How big is your sample size? What's your sampling criteria? Do you have enough data to account for outliers and reach statistical significance in your analysis?
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I know that you're just taking the piss and posting in bad faith because your silly attempt at a gotcha failed and this is just your attempt to save face. But I minored in statistics, I can actually substantiate those claims with sound methodology if you want ;)

As I said though, it'll have to wait until I'm back on my computer.
Lego said:
Do we even agree on the criteria for what "good" or "bad" timekeeping looks like? What if I prefer the tempos that Nicko chooses to the ones that he is "supposed" to play?
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Once again proving that you haven't actually read my comments and you're just throwing a tantrum. I have literally stated MULTIPLE times that it is perfectly valid to subjectively prefer one over the other. The bolded part is literally that, your subjective preference. I know English isn't my first language, but come on, my comments are perfectly readable and I've made the point quite clear. Time to touch some grass I suppose.

Lego said:
All I'm trying to say is it's a bit ridiculous for you to come in here and chastise people for stating it's a "fact" that Nicko is better than Simon, only to turn around and say "ackshully I can PROVE OBJECTIVELY that Nicko's performances were worse than Simon's". Art is subjective, as you said- and "art" is not just the performer, but also the individual performance, AND the criteria that the audience uses to evaluate it.
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Once again you have misunderstood a very simple idea. Let me make it as clear as possible:

Observing how wildly Nicko's tempo fluctuated on The Trooper or Wasted Years during TFP, sometimes to the point of almost derailing the entire show or getting Adrian so frustrated that he stopped playing, is something we can properly determine. That's an objective reality. At the same time we can see that Simon does not fluctuate on the same songs, and has not almost derailed the songs, nor did he get Adrian to quit playing certain riffs. Comparing those situations we can make objective observations and draw conclusions. This isn't something we can agree or disagree on, that's just how these things work.

On the other hand, making the claim that Simon is objectively worse than Clive or Nicko as a musician is ludicrous. It's perfectly fine to feel that way subjectively. That's totally valid. But to proclaim this subjective opinion as being a universal truth? That's pure bullshit and childish nonsense.

Before having a kneejerk reaction and responding with some petty strawmen, take the time to actually read what I wrote. Either engage with my actual points or don't engage at all.

Kurt Barlow said:
And we’re seriously gonna compare the work of a man who just suffered a stroke to the man who replaced him? That’s fucking ghoulish. Absolute idiot.
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There's nothing ghoulish about comparing Maiden's performances in 2023/2024 with those in 225/2026. They toured, people paid to see them, people can leave reviews. Trying to paint this as "ghoulish" is cowardly and disingenuous behaviour ;)
 
Vaenyr said:
I know that you're just taking the piss and posting in bad faith because your silly attempt at a gotcha failed and this is just your attempt to save face. But I minored in statistics, I can actually substantiate those claims with sound methodology if you want ;)

As I said though, it'll have to wait until I'm back on my computer.

Once again proving that you haven't actually read my comments and you're just throwing a tantrum. I have literally stated MULTIPLE times that it is perfectly valid to subjectively prefer one over the other. The bolded part is literally that, your subjective preference. I know English isn't my first language, but come on, my comments are perfectly readable and I've made the point quite clear. Time to touch some grass I suppose.


Once again you have misunderstood a very simple idea. Let me make it as clear as possible:

Observing how wildly Nicko's tempo fluctuated on The Trooper or Wasted Years during TFP, sometimes to the point of almost derailing the entire show or getting Adrian so frustrated that he stopped playing, is something we can properly determine. That's an objective reality. At the same time we can see that Simon does not fluctuate on the same songs, and has not almost derailed the songs, nor did he get Adrian to quit playing certain riffs. Comparing those situations we can make objective observations and draw conclusions. This isn't something we can agree or disagree on, that's just how these things work.

On the other hand, making the claim that Simon is objectively worse than Clive or Nicko as a musician is ludicrous. It's perfectly fine to feel that way subjectively. That's totally valid. But to proclaim this subjective opinion as being a universal truth? That's pure bullshit and childish nonsense.

Before having a kneejerk reaction and responding with some petty strawmen, take the time to actually read what I wrote. Either engage with my actual points or don't engage at all.
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I am not taking the piss.

Until we have a statistically sound analysis of a random sample across both tours to compare, you CANNOT unequivocally state that Nicko's tempos fluctuated more than Simon's, or that his performances were objectively inferior.

Cherrypicking some examples of Adrian getting pissed off when Nicko fucked up in 23-24, alongside some examples of Simon NOT fucking up in 25-26, is not enough to conclude this.

And even if it is proven to be true, tempo is NOT the only criteria by which a performance can be judged, so all you'll have proven is that Nicko's tempos fluctuated more. Not that his performances are "objectively worse".

I AGREE with you it's ridiculous to say that any musician is objectively worse than any other. But it is ALSO ridiculous to say that any given performance is objectively worse than any other.
 
Why is it so hard for you to just admit that you PREFER Simon's tempos and/or performances on RFYL to Nicko's tempos and/or performances on FP? It's a perfectly valid opinion.

Why do you NEED to try and prove it objectively?
 
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