DAWSON 1 YEAR ON

UpTheIrons said:
I really think it boils down to a scenario as simple as this:

Simon is 'on retainer' as the back-up drummer on the Future Past Tour because Steve is already taking British Lion along to play side shows and it means the rhythm section are used to playing with each other.

As per an interview with Bruce last year, the band rehearse with Simon on an off-day during the tour, everyone thinks it goes great and that Simon is 'stage ready'.

Nicko stands down at the end of the tour, Simon is the automatic replacement on account of the above.

In real life, circumstances, interpersonal relationships and sheer convenience play a big part and it is not a case of simply picking a drummer with the best stat block like an RPG party member. Who knows? Maybe if Joe Lazarus had been part of the Maiden crew during TFP he might have ended up being the replacement.
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The likely case is m
Azas said:
Oops, looks like someone's about to ask for a DNA test.
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joe Lazarus is Harris’ nephew. Joe has grown up with Maiden.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
Here you’re just talking about how to talk, and not actually saying anything. Thought you’d pressed ‘ignore’ on me anyway?
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What? When did I ever claim to have put you on ignore? Not a single time. Multiple other users have done so, but I haven't and I also haven't even talked about it. Are you even reading responses or are you simply engaging with hallucinations?

Kurt Barlow said:
Art is creative expression.

In this case, Steve Harris is the artist, as he is the writer.

Dawson’s job is to bring to life the artistic endeavours of another artist. He can’t do it to the standard it which has previously been performed. IN MY OPINION.
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That's perfectly valid. As long as you don't claim it as "fact", which you did multiple times before. Because it is not a fact, nor is it objective. It's completely subjective. That's the point.

Kurt Barlow said:
Go on. Tell me more about how language works. Patronising little dilettante.
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Look at who's resorting to personal attacks now ;)

Lego said:
Remember last year when you told me that it was an "objective fact" that Simon's drumming on RFYL was better than Nicko's drumming on Future Past?

Art is subjective, eh?
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Comparing two very specific instances under strict criteria, is quantifiable, yes. Nicko during TFP had enormous issues with tempo and consistency, things that Simon quite literally doesn't have. Look at any performance from the last two years and not a single one has the wildly fluctuating tempos that Nicko's playing in 2023 and 2024 had.

Note, I'm not saying that Simon is "objectively better than Nicko" (which Kurt does in the opposite way, btw) because that would be an insane and moronic line of thought. I was comparing specific performances, not the musicians themselves in general. There's a distinction there.
Kurt Barlow said:
Lazarus has huge experience of touring all over the world, with numerous artists at all levels.

He is much, much more than a Nicko clone. A brief perusal of his instagram proves this.
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Yet Steve and the boys explicitly decided against hiring him. They didn't want to play with him, so it's irrelevant how much experience he has. Who knows, maybe Nicko had a say and didn't want someone who could emulate him too closely?
 
Btw, this was the post I had written:

Vaenyr said:
And I said multiple times it's fine and valid for you to prefer one performance over the other but Nicko's playing got so bad that it derailed multiple shows and many songs were utter trainwrecks. This has not happened with Simon. In fact, as I already mentioned, the exact opposite happened where Simon was the one reining the other ones (in particular Steve) in. That, to me, shows that at the current moment Simon is objectively better suited for the drumming job in Maiden because he's far more consistent and dependable.
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If you cannot differentiate between "Simon is more consistent and keeps better time than Nicko" (which is a quantifiable statement) and "Simon is objectively a worse drummer than Nicko and Clive" (which is purely subjective and has nothing to do with objectivity) then we've simply entered a realm of delusion where words have no meaning anymore and people just whine and bitch and moan based on vibes instead of what we see and hear.
 
Vaenyr said:
Comparing two very specific instances under strict criteria, is quantifiable, yes. Nicko during TFP had enormous issues with tempo and consistency, things that Simon quite literally doesn't have. Look at any performance from the last two years and not a single one has the wildly fluctuating tempos that Nicko's playing in 2023 and 2024 had.

Note, I'm not saying that Simon is "objectively better than Nicko" (which Kurt does in the opposite way, btw) because that would be an insane and moronic line of thought. I was comparing specific performances, not the musicians themselves in general. There's a distinction there.
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Mate that's a load of shite and you know it. Different tours, different setlists, and it's not as if Simon hasn't had his own issues with tempo, feel, and consistency.

"Art is subjective, except when I decide it isn't"

Even if the band had played exactly the same setlist in '24 and '25, it's still a perfectly valid opinion to find Nicko's post-stroke drumming better than Simon's. Just as it is for people to find Simon's drumming better than Nicko's.
 
Lego said:
Mate that's a load of shite and you know it. Different tours, different setlists, and it's not as if Simon hasn't had his own issues with tempo, feel, and consistency.

"Art is subjective, except when I decide it isn't"

Even if the band had played exactly the same setlist in '24 and '25, it's still a perfectly valid opinion to find Nicko's post-stroke drumming better than Simon's. Just as it is for people to find Simon's drumming better than Nicko's.
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I love how this guy uses phrases like ‘quite literally’ then asks us to look up the words ‘objective’ and ‘subjective’. Guy is an absolute fucking clown.
 
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Lego said:
Mate that's a load of shite and you know it. Different tours, different setlists, and it's not as if Simon hasn't had his own issues with tempo, feel, and consistency.

"Art is subjective, except when I decide it isn't"
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See what I wrote above. Stop fighting strawmen and engage with what I'm actually stating. There's overlap between those tours. Take The Trooper or Wasted Years and directly compare them. Nicko had enormous timing issues and fluctuations. Simon very clearly does not. This is not a subjective assessment, this is simply critical analysis of their performances. Which is completely different than claiming "Nicko and Clive are objectively better than Simon".

Lego said:
Even if the band had played exactly the same setlist in '24 and '25, it's still a perfectly valid opinion to find Nicko's post-stroke drumming better than Simon's. Just as it is for people to find Simon's drumming better than Nicko's.
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As I've literally stated multiple timed already it is perfectly valid to prefer one over the other, no matter which direction. But stating their own subjective preference as an objective fact is delusional. I don't know how often I need to repeat this, it's really not a difficult argument. I'm afraid y'all are only glossing over the posts instead of properly reading and parsing what's written.
 
onurb said:
Any younger professional heavy metal drummer would be better. But it is what it is.

All this discussion is pointless as i said before. Simon will be their drummer until the end (unless he get injured or sick).
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Quoted for truth.

As I said before, it is our choice to decide whether we want to see them live again or not. I will probably not, but absolutely respect the decision of those who will.
 
Vaenyr said:
Btw, this was the post I had written:



If you cannot differentiate between "Simon is more consistent and keeps better time than Nicko" (which is a quantifiable statement) and "Simon is objectively a worse drummer than Nicko and Clive" (which is purely subjective and has nothing to do with objectivity) then we've simply entered a realm of delusion where words have no meaning anymore and people just whine and bitch and moan based on vibes instead of what we see and hear.
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Can you present empirical data to prove that Simon keeps better time than Nicko? That Nicko is PROVEN to have caused these "multiple trainwrecks" you claim to have taken place on FP? Can you define "keeping time" within the context of a band that 1) doesn't use a click track and 2) is known for tempos that noticeably ebb and flow within the same song?

Your opinion is subjective just like everyone else's.
 
GhostofCain said:
Quoted for truth.

As I said before, it is our choice to decide whether we want to see them live again or not. I will probably not, but absolutely respect the decision of those who will.
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There is no reason to expect Dawson to be kept if push back is significant. Blaze Bayley managed 2 albums before someone got thru to Steve.
 
Lego said:
Can you present empirical data to prove that Simon keeps better time than Nicko? That Nicko is PROVEN to have caused these "multiple trainwrecks" you claim to have taken place on FP? Can you define "keeping time" within the context of a band that 1) doesn't use a click track and 2) is known for tempos that noticeably ebb and flow within the same song?

Your opinion is subjective just like everyone else's.
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I don't have access to my computer until next Wednesday, since I'm currently traveling and it's a pain to compile all that on a phone. But yes, once I'm back I can absolutely provide you examples that show Nicko's fluctuations on TFP being much more egregious and substantial than his average playing over the last four decades. I can show that, relative to the song's intended tempo (where a click track is irrelevant anyway), Simon adheres closer to what he's supposed to be playing compared to how Nicko played on TFP.

I can also compile videos of instances where songs almost fell apart during TFP, including moments where Adrian stopped playing in frustration. Furthermore, I can add videos from RFYL where Steve and Bruce fucked up and Simon was the one to salvage their mess. Those things were well documented after all.

So, sure. If you give me some time I can absolutely substantiate my claims. Because as I said: Claiming someone is objectively worse or better than someone else in general is nonsensical, while comparing specific criteria like keeping time, is something we can objectively determine.
 
Kurt Barlow said:
There is no reason to expect Dawson to be kept if push back is significant. Blaze Bayley managed 2 albums before someone got thru to Steve.
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Blaze got the chop because Bruce was coming back to the band, if this wasn't on the table there is every reason to believe that a third Blaze album would have been released. As there is no prospect of Nicko coming back, Simon is here to stay for however long the band stay on the road. I imagine Steve's response to any criticism would be the perennial 'it is what it is'.
 
UpTheIrons said:
Blaze got the chop because Bruce was coming back to the band, if this wasn't on the table there is every reason to believe that a third Blaze album would have been released. As there is no prospect of Nicko coming back, Simon is here to stay for however long the band stay on the road. I imagine Steve's response to any criticism would be the perennial 'it is what it is'.
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I imagine if Blaze was as good as Bruce he wouldn’t have gotten the boot. But he wasn’t. It was an easy decision to make.

Nobody is talking about getting Nicko back. What I’m suggesting is getting a drummer who can play Iron Maiden songs the way they were written and recorded. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
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Vaenyr said:
I don't have access to my computer until next Wednesday, since I'm currently traveling and it's a pain to compile all that on a phone. But yes, once I'm back I can absolutely provide you examples that show Nicko's fluctuations on TFP being much more egregious and substantial than his average playing over the last four decades. I can show that, relative to the song's intended tempo (where a click track is irrelevant anyway), Simon adheres closer to what he's supposed to be playing compared to how Nicko played on TFP.

I can also compile videos of instances where songs almost fell apart during TFP, including moments where Adrian stopped playing in frustration. Furthermore, I can add videos from RFYL where Steve and Bruce fucked up and Simon was the one to salvage their mess. Those things were well documented after all.

So, sure. If you give me some time I can absolutely substantiate my claims. Because as I said: Claiming someone is objectively worse or better than someone else in general is nonsensical, while comparing specific criteria like keeping time, is something we can objectively determine.
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Examples? I said empirical data.

How big is your sample size? What's your sampling criteria? Do you have enough data to account for outliers and reach statistical significance in your analysis?

Do we even agree on the criteria for what "good" or "bad" timekeeping looks like? What if I prefer the tempos that Nicko chooses to the ones that he is "supposed" to play?

All I'm trying to say is it's a bit ridiculous for you to come in here and chastise people for stating it's a "fact" that Nicko is better than Simon, only to turn around and say "ackshully I can PROVE OBJECTIVELY that Nicko's performances were worse than Simon's". Art is subjective, as you said- and "art" is not just the performer, but also the individual performance, AND the criteria that the audience uses to evaluate it.
 
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