UK Politics

Spaldy said:
Hopefully the thugs get chased out of town.
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Hopefully ...

The other protest mentioned is scheduled to happen sometime around the middle of the day. That lot plan to process from the Bargate along Above Bar Street and finish up in East Park, which is just up the road from where I work. That seems harmless enough if they stick to just that but we've been warned to be careful outside the building at lunchtime.

The evening one looks the more likely to get nasty I think :(.
 
Social media is really under fire in all this. Any nutter can make a post suggesting locations and days for protests or actual arson attacks, and incite people to fight police and burn police cars, and the social media platforms are just ignoring it. No organising required, just incitement to violence and hoping that local nutters will turn up.

Musk has been a prize arsehole in the past few days, pretty much siding with thugs and trying to say it's free speech. Not sure what part of '£50 quid to everyone who smashes a police car' is free speech, or posting flame emojis and giving addresses of hotels they *think* refugees might be staying in.
 
To be honest I've been wondering "Telegram Sam" is involved in orchestrating anything at all - I think he may be just some sad, pathetic Wearside Jack type with a perverse craving for notoriety ...

Anyway here can be found an update on the situation in Southampton, if anyone's interested:
https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/24503497.southampton-closures-police-patrols-ahead-protests/

For anyone only mildly curious, here are the salient points:
The protest:
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The counter-protest:
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A general summary:
summary.JPG
Sellers of plywood boarding did quite good trade though :D
 
That's the thing, anyone can make these posts, and police never quite know if anything is actually being organised, or if someone is just trying to incite it, scare people, and sent the police out chasing ghosts. Of course a lot of the major misbehavers are in custody now and are being denied bail, probably for good reason. The courts were sitting very late last night and the sentencing has been at the upper end of what's possible.
 
Brigantium said:
That's the thing, anyone can make these posts, and police never quite know if anything is actually being organised, or if someone is just trying to incite it, scare people, and sent the police out chasing ghosts. Of course a lot of the major misbehavers are in custody now and are being denied bail, probably for good reason. The courts were sitting very late last night and the sentencing has been at the upper end of what's possible.
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I think there's also a certain amount of "it's happening, other people are stirring it up: I'll take the credit for it while staying well away and not getting arrested".
 
1 week before the 80th anniversary of VE day, the far right made significant gains in local and mayoral elections in the UK, also managing to get another MP in a by-election.

We have not learnt anything from history. :mad:
 
Shite isn't it? This after that so-helpful Supreme Court ruling the other week that restricts single sex spaces to 'biological sex' (as defined immutably by whatever is on the birth certificate).

I'm not sure this is even about right-wing politics within the average democratic political spectrum any more. It's plain old mob behaviour. There's no interest in economics or basic governance among that crowd, it's just about getting one over on everyone else. The meatheads and little shits on dirt bikes who like running 'normies' down in the street think their time has come
 
GhostofCain said:
1 week before the 80th anniversary of VE day, the far right made significant gains in local and mayoral elections in the UK, also managing to get another MP in a by-election.

We have not learnt anything from history. :mad:
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The far right usually make inroads during local elections and then get nothing in the GE's. Hopefully that remains the case.

Also, this wasn't a UK local election. England only.
 
Spaldy said:
The far right usually make inroads during local elections and then get nothing in the GE's. Hopefully that remains the case.
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We've had years of Tories, Labour finally get in and are doing the "look we can be Tory-lite" thing. The Reform lot are getting louder and more popular at the same time Labour support is collapsing. Unfortunately I think England is at a turning point.

I'm really hoping Scotland can keep out of this trend, we're typically quite resistant to far right politics, UKIP were never able to get a foothold up here. But if Reform win Westminster I can see them looking to abolish Holyrood.
 
Trevoire said:
We've had years of Tories, Labour finally get in and are doing the "look we can be Tory-lite" thing. The Reform lot are getting louder and more popular at the same time Labour support is collapsing. Unfortunately I think England is at a turning point.

I'm really hoping Scotland can keep out of this trend, we're typically quite resistant to far right politics, UKIP were never able to get a foothold up here. But if Reform win Westminster I can see them looking to abolish Holyrood.
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That will be the stuff of nightmares!
 
GhostofCain said:
That will be the stuff of nightmares!
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Current polling is certainly very favourable for Reform, for what that's worth four years out from an election, this is no doubt why the front page of BBC News today is Starmer strafing right and trying to appear tough on immigration. There are two trains of thought as to whether or not this will be effective:

1. Immigration numbers decrease substantially, so nobody has any reason to vote for Reform anymore, Labour win big again.
2. People would rather vote for Farage than Farage-lite, Reform win big.

From what I understand a similar approach to this worked well for the centre-left in Denmark, but Starmer is burdened with a great deal of personal unpopularity that may be an obstacle for him.
 
UpTheIrons said:
Current polling is certainly very favourable for Reform, for what that's worth four years out from an election, this is no doubt why the front page of BBC News today is Starmer strafing right and trying to appear tough on immigration. There are two trains of thought as to whether or not this will be effective:

1. Immigration numbers decrease substantially, so nobody has any reason to vote for Reform anymore, Labour win big again.
2. People would rather vote for Farage than Farage-lite, Reform win big.

From what I understand a similar approach to this worked well for the centre-left in Denmark, but Starmer is burdened with a great deal of personal unpopularity that may be an obstacle for him.
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Perhaps it is time to roll out some progressive policies, which is what most people in the left who voted Labour (or Green) definitely want and think are missing from the current government. It is true they inherited a big almighty mess from the Tories, but they are definitely not going to get votes from us in the left the next time around if they keep pandering to the right.
 
GhostofCain said:
Perhaps it is time to roll out some progressive policies, which is what most people in the left who voted Labour (or Green) definitely want and think are missing from the current government. It is true they inherited a big almighty mess from the Tories, but they are definitely not going to get votes from us in the left the next time around if they keep pandering to the right.
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Yes this would almost certainly be a more successful strategy, as voters lost on the right are in my opinion somewhat unlikely to return to Labour, but just as many if not more have left for the Lib Dems and the Greens and they are much more likely to be responsive to a pivot back to the left. For some reason however, Starmer's Labour seem to be deathly afraid of doing anything that could appear 'woke'.
 
I find the parallels between the US Dems and UK Labour quite interesting, and frightening:

They both had chance for a grassroots left wing leader, but did everything they could to stop them, instead of getting behind them and using their surging popularity to win (see Bernie/Corbyn)

They both do fairly similar "see we're not left, we're centrist and will pander to the right" dance, that alienates left leaning voters while failing to grab the right wing voters they're so desperately trying to woo.

It does give me the absolute fear that we're about to have our Trump moment with Reform.
 
Trevoire said:
I find the parallels between the US Dems and UK Labour quite interesting, and frightening:

They both had chance for a grassroots left wing leader, but did everything they could to stop them, instead of getting behind them and using their surging popularity to win (see Bernie/Corbyn)

They both do fairly similar "see we're not left, we're centrist and will pander to the right" dance, that alienates left leaning voters while failing to grab the right wing voters they're so desperately trying to woo.

It does give me the absolute fear that we're about to have our Trump moment with Reform.
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Terrifying thought that sends shivers down my spine.
 
Trevoire said:
I find the parallels between the US Dems and UK Labour quite interesting, and frightening:

They both had chance for a grassroots left wing leader, but did everything they could to stop them, instead of getting behind them and using their surging popularity to win (see Bernie/Corbyn)

They both do fairly similar "see we're not left, we're centrist and will pander to the right" dance, that alienates left leaning voters while failing to grab the right wing voters they're so desperately trying to woo.

It does give me the absolute fear that we're about to have our Trump moment with Reform.
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It's a very real possibility on the current trajectory, I think there are two main factors that will affect the outcome at the next general election:

1. Labour have to deliver tangible positive improvements for everyday people i.e. people need to feel as if things are more affordable, their wages have increased, energy costs have gone down. Labour were elected on a change mandate after a truly disastrous Tory government that only got worse as the years went on. If they fail to deliver change, its game over, just being able to reel off some economic figures that sound good isn't enough - people have to feel as if they are better off and that the country is headed for better times.

2. Farage has been pretty much the only British political figure who has openly and energetically supported Trump. Given that Trump is overwhelmingly an unpopular figure in Britain and that the start of his second term has been objectively bad, if he continues to do a terrible job (particularly in regards to relations with Western allies) then Nige will be dragged down by association and this will make for an easy attack line to be used against Reform.
 
Yeah, Labour are gunning hard for Tory voters, hence benefits crackdowns, cheering on business, doing the old cutback/austerity thing, and now tightening the rules on (economic) migrants. The Conservatives were already gunning hard for people to the right of their demographic, so it's no surprise Labour is going further that way too. I'd still prefer centrists or even vaguely right of centre by a mile to the dodgy spivs and populist right wingers who ousted the traditional Tory leadership after Brexit and the descended into directionless populism and infighting. They lost the last election on the back of populist overtures and incoherent economic direction. It's just not why people generally vote Conservative.

I suspect in future we're going to have major upheavals in all major parties. As I've said before, probably on the US Politics thread, I've a feeling the political scene is now in an era where knee jerk reaction and poorly informed opinion based on social media snippets is a major influence in voting. Which is a pity because democracy is naturally slow paced and doesn't work well in that situation.

Re Reform an Scotland, I suspect in their current form they're way too English to get anywhere. Farage is second hand car salesman English nationalism personified. If they created Reform Scotland on the other hand, and got a Scottish leader for that, they might gain ground there.
 
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