USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
- Start date
Just giving out his heart. So he did it twice, once for the audience, once for the flag. A thing that famously has never been done by other people.
He doesn't need to say shit. Others are lining up to excuse it for him, including NBC News, the New York Times, and the fucking Anti-Defamation League.
The Garlon
Educated Fool
Trump Republicans barely hiding who they really are at this point.
The Garlon
Educated Fool
Why do Republicans (and JK Rowling, apparently) feel the need to interject themselves and their opinions into other's lives? So what if people are trans or gay? How does that affect your life?
Azas
Major Noyance
I was watching Trump speech yesterday with one eye. In some parts i felt cringe and disbelief but also it felt to me like a swing of the historical metaphorical Pendulum. Trump as a result, definitely is a backlash to what far left / progresyvists / democrats did. And what they did, was either too early, or too fast implemented, or without much needed education of the masses, or just plain wrong. I'm no expert here. Anyone trying to be objective will admit that to some degree. Without A there would be no B.
Democrats need to change their approach, imo. We truly live in "interesting" times.
Democrats need to change their approach, imo. We truly live in "interesting" times.
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Azas
Major Noyance
I'm not against gay people. I'm trying to generalise here. What impression i've got from infosphere. Also it definitely is "controversial" and "click baity" topic, easy to "capitalise" on it.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Since when is the nazi salute only "too controversial"?
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Sorry, but fuck off with this shit. This is irrelevant to the thread and JK Rowlling is a notorious TERF who has proven time and time again to not understand even the basic details of biology. She has, multiple times, brazenly lied about easily verifiable scientific facts that contradict her. She has misquoted statistics or even made up fake ones to support her views, despite the actual numbers disproving her. The only thing she has is anecdotes, but those are statistically worthless (and easily faked as well) and you can find an anecdote for any point of view anyway, so that's a moot point.
Her transphobia runs so deep that she spent the summer harassing a cis woman (as in, someone who is not trans), fanning the flames and attacking a woman just because she didn't fulfill JK's ideals of what a woman is supposed to look like. Also, that hate campaign was actively influence by Russia and we know how you feel about that, so maybe don't share stuff like that uncritically, inform yourself on such matters and think about it for a minute.
No, women and girls are not "betrayed" by the left. Rowling attacks cis women. Rowling is the one who spreads hate against trans individuals, while at the same time never taking even a moment to address things that affect other women, like when fucking Roe was repealed. I'm sorry, but anyone who spends all their time obsessing over trans people is clearly very troubled and not a serious person. If you think the incredibly complex issues we are facing world wide at the moment are because a tiny percentage of the population would like to live their lives in peace without being literally attacked every day, not only verbally but also physically, then you clearly have lost touch with reality.
Guess what: We are reliving the "greatest hits" of the previous century. And lest you forget, the Nazis targeted queer people and destroyed valuable research in that area. Are you going to claim that WW2 started because of gay and trans people? Of course not, that would be an embarassing argument to make. Trying to blame those minorities for literal fascists doing fascist things is simply rewarding the actions of those fascists. Hell, the reason why gay people in America have the rights they do at the moment is specifically because of riots in which the trans community played a vital role and gave their all. This uncritical embrace of misinformation and casual bigotry boils my blood. Be fucking better than the morons who get their "information" from Russian disinformation channels.
Rant over.
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
One side wants people to live their lives.
The other side wants them eradicated.
Is the middle ground "we are going to eradicate half of them"?
This is not about "bubbles"; I'm strictly arguing what the medical and scientific consensus world wide is at the moment. The actual experts are acknowledging the existence of trans people and want to give them the opportunity to transition. There are more than enough studies that show decisively how transitioning leads to healthier and happier lives.
You are the messenger of bigoted misinformation. I'm not calling you a bigot; I'm saying due to not being familiar enough with the topic you've been duped by people and organizations (including Russia btw) who have malicious intents and want to scapegoat vulnerable minorities, so that the anger is focused on those instead of them.
So, yeah, I'd rather go with the doctors and experts and the verifiable data we have on these topics instead of lies, fearmongering and fascist doctrines.
To the mods/admins: Sorry for the harsh tone, I'm aware that a warning or even a thread ban is probably coming my way, but I can't let such easily abusable rhetoric go unchallenged. We have fucking white supremacists in charge of the world's most powerful nation, Elmo doing fucking Hitler salutes and we're supposed to blame a miniscule fraction of the population for wanting to be treated with the base amount of human dignity and respecting their names and pronouns? Yeah, sorry, I can't let that fly, whatever the consequences to my account.
Azas
Major Noyance
I am trying to speak from PR manager or whatever point of view. If politician wants to be elected he has to "hear" ordinary people. Of course not to go full retard and not to become a populist but nonetheless. And if he knows which topics are too hot, he must not push those too hard or implement too fast, because all he will get is a backlash. And it's irrelevant "what doctors, or scientists say" if big part of the voters thinks otherwise. You can't expect good manners from neanderthal at the dinner table. All you can do is to educate and teach him. In that aspect democrats failed their course. Or pushed too hard, or too fast, I don't know. Again, I am not taking sides, i'm just trying to analyze, how Trump rose to power.
I am not pro Trump. I dislike Musk very much. I never voted for far right or far left in my country elections. The World has become a dangerous place. But also, I think that Biden was weak, how he handled russia's invasion. Yes, military support was enormous but not enough, imo. What do we have now? Biden "as long as it takes" is gone, yet the war continues.
If I was US citizen, i would voted for Harris. Maybe frowning a bit but anyway.
And democrats need to review their politics in order to win voters back. And to educate which in itself is a long process. Bla bla bla.
I am not pro Trump. I dislike Musk very much. I never voted for far right or far left in my country elections. The World has become a dangerous place. But also, I think that Biden was weak, how he handled russia's invasion. Yes, military support was enormous but not enough, imo. What do we have now? Biden "as long as it takes" is gone, yet the war continues.
If I was US citizen, i would voted for Harris. Maybe frowning a bit but anyway.
And democrats need to review their politics in order to win voters back. And to educate which in itself is a long process. Bla bla bla.
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Daggmask2009
Invader
I doubt Musk did the gesture to convey his inner n*zism, he is too self-centered for that. He would create his own evil gesture.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
You are literally describing what you refuse to do. You are being educated. You are being told the actual facts. You dismiss them to continue pushing populist lies. Facts matter. The truth matters. The public is being misled by culture war issues that have no basis in reality. You are regurgitating Russian (among other sources) propaganda, instead of reevaluating your positions based on what we know for a fact to be true. For someone who is usually the first to attack Russia it is fascinating that on this topic you are doing all you can to push their sentiments, continuing the erosion of democratic principles in the West by scapegoating a vulnerable minority.
No, democrats did not "push too hard or too fast". That is a ridiculous notion, not backed by any sort of data. These are the same types of arguments people brought 60 years ago when the topic was to stop lynching black people and giving them the same rights as other US citizens. There were more than enough racists who were saying "this goes too far" and that change was too fast. Turns out social change requires disruption if we are to continue improving society. Holding on to the status quo is provably making things worse in the long run (see climate change for another example, or as you usually point out how soft Russia is being treated instead of facing aggression).
If you look at the polls, despite the fearmongering campaings, trans-related issues were commonly some of the least important aspects in the rankings of voters. As in, there are multiple polls with the "top 10 issues for voters" and trans topics were consistenly at the bottom of those lists. So, no, the vast majority of people does not care. Ironically you are the one pushing the bubble-think, regardless of what is happening in reality.
On this we can agree. No one claims the Democrats are perfect. Hell, the election and what followed shows that the higher ups are massive morons learning all the wrong lessons, which shouldn't be too surprising honestly. No arguments on that front.
For the record, I never said you are pro-Trump or anything like that. I'm saying that you are quoting the populist lies the right wing is pushing, probably without being fully aware of that. Lies that are easily disproven but "sound right" to their voters and which affirm their feelings. Conservatives claim to be for "small government" and at the same time spend an ungodly amount of time stripping people of their rights and interfering in their private lives. Again: The problems we are seeing worldwide are complex, but a look back in history can explain very well and comprehensively how we arrived where we are. And I guarantee you, trans people are not to blame for that.
Hell, let's make this even clearer: The Harris campaign did not focus on trans people, at all. Trump went hard against the trans community. The GOP introduced hundreds of anti-trans bills in 2024. The RIGHT is the one pushing these culture war issues non-stop. Blaming the left for that is not only factually incorrect, it is intellectually dishonest, disingenuous and plays right into the hands of literal fascists.
Again, for all that is good and holy, stop for a single moment and think about your positions, reflect on them and see if they hold up to scrutiny. Are you sharing ideas that make sense and are supported by any kind of data, or hell, reality? Or are you just holding on to your opinion and twist everything around in order to not change a pre-conceived notion, regardless of the truth?
Yax
Ancient Mariner
I think Karin Petterson of Aftonbladet nails it. Headline "Elon Musk heilar och vet precis vad han gör"
"Nej, Musk kommer aldrig att säga att han är nazist, och han kommer att avfärda de som kritiserar honom som hysteriska woke-krigare som inte kan ta ett skämt.
Där kommer debatten att fastna.
Det är så här det fungerar, det är så här det har fungerat länge.
Det som är viktigt att förstå är att allt hänger ihop. Retoriken, politiken, estetiken. Det ser inte exakt ut som på 30-talet, och vare sig Trump eller hans nära rådgivare kommer att börja försvara Förintelsen. Det de gör – och kommer att fortsätta att göra – är att anspela på och förstärka högerextrema och auktoritära tankefigurer. Om invandrare som aliens, om politiska fiender som förrädare, om vikten av styrka, om hämnd och vedergällning."
Elon Musk heilar och vet precis vad han gör
Det var inget vagt handviftande, ingen gest som gick att missförstå eller vantolka. Det var två distinkta och precisa nazisthälsningar från världens rikaste man
No, Musk will never say he is a Nazi, and he will dismiss those who criticize him as hysterical woke warriors who can't take a joke.
That's where the debate will get stuck.
This is how it works, this is how it has worked for a long time.
What is important to understand is that everything is connected. The rhetoric, the politics, the aesthetics. It doesn't look exactly like the 1930s, and neither Trump nor his close advisers will start defending the Holocaust. What they do – and will continue to do – is to allude to and reinforce right-wing and authoritarian figures of thought. About immigrants as aliens, about political enemies as traitors, about the importance of strength, about revenge and retribution.
That's where the debate will get stuck.
This is how it works, this is how it has worked for a long time.
What is important to understand is that everything is connected. The rhetoric, the politics, the aesthetics. It doesn't look exactly like the 1930s, and neither Trump nor his close advisers will start defending the Holocaust. What they do – and will continue to do – is to allude to and reinforce right-wing and authoritarian figures of thought. About immigrants as aliens, about political enemies as traitors, about the importance of strength, about revenge and retribution.
____no5
Free Man
Since he doesn't strike me as a Nazi. Like, at all. I think he wanted to provoke or -in his mind- counter provoke.
No rush, we'll know soon enough who the real Elon is. We can be sure that he'll get a pass this time and that the more he's unchecked the more he'll showing his darkest side. And before long he'll be toast.