I think five years ago, economic sanctions towards China would still have hurt the Chinese more than the west. Now, no chance.
I think five years ago, economic sanctions towards China would still have hurt the Chinese more than the west. Now, no chance.
I actually wonder at what point China really began to establish its position (quietly, in the background). So much industry went to China a long time ago, we're talking decades, it's only in recent years that it's been popularly acknowledged.
____no5
Free Man
Background? It was in plain sight for everyone to see for decades. The problem is that the average population of any country are trained to be consumers, not thinkers, so it’s not a big surprise it went under radar for the masses for so long.
I remember Hilary Clinton saying in 2007: As we have been running trade and budget deficits, they have been buying our debt and in essence becoming our banker.
Anybody with trained mind would know by then, if they didn’t catch 2001 when 2008 Olympics when in Beijing or 2005 when China became no4 Economy, less than 8 years after Hong Kong went back to China.
It was Trump that put it on plain sight for the everyday person. People of virtually any industry knew that since 2007 at least.
Of course no matter what you think you know, when you actually go there, you are super impressed by the level of wealth, use of technology and infrastructure.
Below are the top 5 milestones, in my opinion, with no.2 being the start of an enormous economic acceleration & growth:
- 1980 Deng Xiaoping (the real father of China) opens Shenzhen to the world.
- 1997 Hong Kong returns back to China.
- 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.
- 2013 Xi Jinping at the helm + One Belt, One Road.
- 2018 Ending of two-term presidential limit.
Yep. But an awful lot of people don't read/watch news, or at least not the bits they don't think affects them directly. I'd go further back than 1980 too. So much stuff was being made in China (or Hong Kong) right back in the 70s, when European industry was declining.
I'd say the key milestones were 1978 (introduction of special economic zones), 1990 (opening of Shenzhen and Shanghai stock exchanges), 1992 (increase of private investment after inflation is overcome), 2001 (PRC joins WTO) and, probably more than anything else, 2020 with the foundation of RCEP. That last one was what the US could have prevented had Trump not shot down TPP. But he did, and now the Asia-Pacific region is essentially the Chinese Empire.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Here's his granduncle (grandpa's brother in case if that's invalid for English), during the WW2. Bottom row center.
____no5
Free Man
Very nice your milestones, technical & substantial. I picked mine as fool-proof, with the criterion of the average Joe realizing their importance and /or rise of China if he had read the news back in the day, as per @Brigantium 's post.
I know very few from your last milestone though, I need to check further.
From your list, however, Hong Kong is missing big time. The event of re-unification should not be underestimated. It as by far the most important milestone from them all. HK has been the cradle of modern capitalism and the model of state cities such as Dubai, Singapore & Brunei. And to an extend, even China. HK was the reason that Shenzhen was chosen as the first gate to the Markets.
But it’s not just this. HK has literally transformed the psyche of Chinese people, when they start traveling there and saw the potential of the Brave New World.
In my opinion, the south and particularly Guangdong has played a huge role in the forming of modern China, that is post Opium Wars.
Wasn’t that Taiwan? Until Nixon (I think) what we call “China” was Taiwan. Then at some point UN switch the recognition to Mainland and Taiwan remained in limbo ever since. During the 80s Made in Taiwan was quite common tag. Before 80s China was a closed state, like Korea.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
In the US (think it is the same in the UK) .. that would be a great-uncle. Not pointing this out to be an asshole, just saying what we would call it
____no5
Free Man
I didn't want to derail the Legacy of the Beast topic too much so I transfered the conversation here:
Very interesting. I just realised that in a 100% free market world, large ships would not only be immensely more expensive to build, but most importantly shipbuilding yards wouldn't be viable at all. Not for merchant large scale ships at least.
Truly, in most parts of the world state is heavily involved in Shipbuilding one way or another.
Need to check my data about Japan and I believe even in the US this is the case.
The refund guarantee isn't necessary to come from the state. Nor it should. It DEFINITELY shouldn't. Not in the so called "free" market.
But one way or another, it does.
Why? Because even if the Yard manages to find a private bank to issue the guarantee, the Buyer party isn't likely to accept it if not issued from a big bank.
All the above got me thinking: What about airplanes, or other large scale industrial projects? It may turn out that all of them, such as railways, highways, bridges etc are state -backed, one way or another.
Then you have high tech such as semiconductor industry. Not sure how much involved is US in the INTEL, AMD or NVIDIA affairs but I'm pretty sure there will be much state backing in the future TSMC factory in Arizona.
Very interesting. I just realised that in a 100% free market world, large ships would not only be immensely more expensive to build, but most importantly shipbuilding yards wouldn't be viable at all. Not for merchant large scale ships at least.
Truly, in most parts of the world state is heavily involved in Shipbuilding one way or another.
Need to check my data about Japan and I believe even in the US this is the case.
The refund guarantee isn't necessary to come from the state. Nor it should. It DEFINITELY shouldn't. Not in the so called "free" market.
But one way or another, it does.
Why? Because even if the Yard manages to find a private bank to issue the guarantee, the Buyer party isn't likely to accept it if not issued from a big bank.
All the above got me thinking: What about airplanes, or other large scale industrial projects? It may turn out that all of them, such as railways, highways, bridges etc are state -backed, one way or another.
Then you have high tech such as semiconductor industry. Not sure how much involved is US in the INTEL, AMD or NVIDIA affairs but I'm pretty sure there will be much state backing in the future TSMC factory in Arizona.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
It does because it can.
If you have concept of a social state and you have a shipbuilding tradition, it's like 2+2. How many professions do you need to run a large-slipways shipyard (in a lack of a better term). I'm sure you know all about that...a shipyard employs a wider variety of jobs than some corporate IT campus, it employs unionized jobs (very important when comparing to ICT), its impact on the social structure is way higher.
We had a census last year, Split conurbation counts about 310.000 people, the shipyard directly employs north of 2.000 and who knows how many indirectly. It's a 2nd employer in the county, the 1st is a supermarket chain, which ofc has hundreds of stores, and they have 3000 people on payroll. Which means that the shipyard is probably the biggest in the city itself.
2+2. "Give me guarantees or I'll start laying off people" is the dogma of its owner, while he's riding his Brabus and being months' late with communal fees to the City.
If you have concept of a social state and you have a shipbuilding tradition, it's like 2+2. How many professions do you need to run a large-slipways shipyard (in a lack of a better term). I'm sure you know all about that...a shipyard employs a wider variety of jobs than some corporate IT campus, it employs unionized jobs (very important when comparing to ICT), its impact on the social structure is way higher.
We had a census last year, Split conurbation counts about 310.000 people, the shipyard directly employs north of 2.000 and who knows how many indirectly. It's a 2nd employer in the county, the 1st is a supermarket chain, which ofc has hundreds of stores, and they have 3000 people on payroll. Which means that the shipyard is probably the biggest in the city itself.
2+2. "Give me guarantees or I'll start laying off people" is the dogma of its owner, while he's riding his Brabus and being months' late with communal fees to the City.
____no5
Free Man
OK I'm taking it from Ukraine thread:
Seriously? You comparing anything of these with invasions, wars /civil wars & implanting dictatorships & crisis abroad? And I am talking propaganda?
Again as above. Those are acts of peace.
*I'm not familiar /don't get what you mean for the strike-thrown.
I didn't see any extinction Native -American style yet. Or slavery. Separatism. Or even George Floyd. I'm not aware of human organ trade, but I'm quite sure that it wouldn't be State-sponsored.
To be clear. I'm not saying anybody is angel here. But let's look at ourselves first before pointing others. We may learn a lesson or two and maybe a "better way" to do things. Less costing on human lives and actual sorrow.
I do admire the US constitutions which US have built and apply for themselves. But at the world stage, sorry, they've done and still doing terrible things.
Seriously? You comparing anything of these with invasions, wars /civil wars & implanting dictatorships & crisis abroad? And I am talking propaganda?
Again as above. Those are acts of peace.
*I'm not familiar /don't get what you mean for the strike-thrown.
I didn't see any extinction Native -American style yet. Or slavery. Separatism. Or even George Floyd. I'm not aware of human organ trade, but I'm quite sure that it wouldn't be State-sponsored.
To be clear. I'm not saying anybody is angel here. But let's look at ourselves first before pointing others. We may learn a lesson or two and maybe a "better way" to do things. Less costing on human lives and actual sorrow.
I do admire the US constitutions which US have built and apply for themselves. But at the world stage, sorry, they've done and still doing terrible things.
GhostofCain
Ancient Mariner
They definitely have a great track record supporting/helping-rise-to-power-with-coup-d’états fascistic dictators in Latin America…
I like many thinks that originated in the USA, but their foreign policy is definitely not one of them.
Flaming Blimp Crash
Ancient Mariner
Selectively. One word digression complete.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Let’s look again at what you originally wrote:
“To conclude, for its magnitude, this is a very peaceful country. They navigate very carefully & quite respectfully in the foreign affairs. There are no coups, or any kind of military or any intervention to achieve influence.” (Emphasis mine)
I was addressing the obvious counterexamples to those highlighted claims of yours.
Also, the CCP came to power via civil war, and obviously intervened directly in the Korean and Vietnamese civil wars. You could argue that they had a vested interest in influencing wars on their own borders, but you can’t pretend that they kept their hands clean and didn’t involve themselves in this sort of thing.
So yes, whitewashing China’s history in this way does reek of propaganda.
Proactively stealing foreign IP to incorporate it into their own military hardware is an “act of peace”? Amazing.
Hong Kong’s Basic Law was enacted under the constitution of China in preparation for its handover from the UK back to China in 1997, and promised to preserve Hong Kong’s personal freedoms, economic system, and self-governance through 2047. Recent events in Hong Kong make it abundantly clear that China isn’t willing to wait that long anymore.
The foreign port strategy is what I’d described earlier — making shady loans and promises of sea commerce to African and south Asian countries, artificially pumping up the commerce at first, then pulling the rug out from under the other country so they default on the loan and ownership of the port reverts back to China so they can use it as a forward military base. Clearly disrespectful, interventionary to achieve influence, and in no way an “act of peace”.
The Uyghurs just might disagree with your perspective.
Yes, of course, the original European immigrants to North America did horrible things to the native population. And slavery is a long-term stain on the country. And yes, we had internment camps for Japanese Americans during WWII. All inexcusable. I’m not claiming otherwise.
And yet, how many Native Americans or American descendants of slaves would prefer to live under the CCP rather than the admittedly flawed U.S. government?
China: UN human rights experts alarmed by ‘organ harvesting’ allegations
中文 GENEVA (14 June 2021) – UN human rights experts* said today they were extremely alarmed by reports of alleged ‘organ harvesting’ targeting minorities, including Falun Gong practitioners, Uyghurs, Tibetans, Muslims and Christians, in detention in China.
You certainly seem to be painting a far more innocent portrait of the CCP than the objective evidence would suggest.
Excellent advice. Perhaps you should follow it yourself.
____no5
Free Man
I'll check your link further, but many of your content is just aphorisms i.e. "Uyghurs just might disagree with your perspective". There's no extinction there not even remotely. Or "How many Native Americans or American descendants of slaves would prefer to live under the CCP rather than the admittedly flawed U.S. government?"
I don't know how many man, nor I care.
The discussion was focused on the Foreign Policy where I argued that one country's contribution to third countries sorrow is unmatched. And as of influence they try to buy in Africa at least there's no wars /invasions /coups involved. For god's sake for all the sorrow US has brought to the World in order to achieve influence, do I care if the others are "making shady loans and promises of sea commerce"?
And you still insist? What's so difficult to understand?
I don't know how many man, nor I care.
The discussion was focused on the Foreign Policy where I argued that one country's contribution to third countries sorrow is unmatched. And as of influence they try to buy in Africa at least there's no wars /invasions /coups involved. For god's sake for all the sorrow US has brought to the World in order to achieve influence, do I care if the others are "making shady loans and promises of sea commerce"?
And you still insist? What's so difficult to understand?
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
Persecution of Uyghurs in China - Wikipedia
Native Americans and descendents of slaves aren’t extinct either, if that’s your only measurement.
And the Uyghurs are being actively used as slave labor right now under the CCP’s direction. In case you missed the memo, slavery has been illegal in the U.S. for over 150 years.
And yet it’s a completely valid question if you’re going to imply that the CCP is kinder and gentler than the supposedly oppressive U.S. government.
Worse than the former Soviet Union? Really?
Apparently not, even though they’re grifting the entire third world to expand their military might. Sure, the U.S. has done the same in different ways, and I don’t defend that — but you seem to be ignoring the impact of China doing the same.
I’ve explained the parts that don’t make sense to me, and I would ask you the same question about my points.
____no5
Free Man
Sure but now it's completely derailed from my initial focus on foreign policy.
For the hot topic you mentioned first I don't have much info. Let's just say that I'm taking those reports with a grain of salt. Soviet Union it was irrelevant, but again I believe that US has caused more sorrow. Plus the only country to have dropped atomic bomb on population. Twice.
Now on topic, you've said "they’re grifting the entire third world to expand their military might". As they grow, their military might should naturally follow. They should and do spend more and all, but apart from that I don't see any signs that they plan to use it against UN countries anytime soon. Least of all to buy influence. Their way to buy influence is commerce, trade and infrastructure. If you take a close look in their history you'll see that they always had many internal wars but pretty much everything they achieved in the World stage was not through war, but through trade and peace.
For the hot topic you mentioned first I don't have much info. Let's just say that I'm taking those reports with a grain of salt. Soviet Union it was irrelevant, but again I believe that US has caused more sorrow. Plus the only country to have dropped atomic bomb on population. Twice.
Now on topic, you've said "they’re grifting the entire third world to expand their military might". As they grow, their military might should naturally follow. They should and do spend more and all, but apart from that I don't see any signs that they plan to use it against UN countries anytime soon. Least of all to buy influence. Their way to buy influence is commerce, trade and infrastructure. If you take a close look in their history you'll see that they always had many internal wars but pretty much everything they achieved in the World stage was not through war, but through trade and peace.
____no5
Free Man
Noam Chomsky on Ukrainian War, touching some of its root causes, what can we do about it, how to end it and beyond to India & China. Quite an interesting non biased watch.
6:00 Factors encouraging Russian invasion
9:00 Weapons in Ukraine from NATO
15:00 Crimea, Donbass
42:00 India
44:40 China submarines
53:00 Happiness of the military industrial complex and fossil fuel industries
6:00 Factors encouraging Russian invasion
9:00 Weapons in Ukraine from NATO
15:00 Crimea, Donbass
42:00 India
44:40 China submarines
53:00 Happiness of the military industrial complex and fossil fuel industries
The_7th_one
Ancient Mariner
I'll check it out later, thanks for sharing