Women In The World Subject N°2

[!--quoteo(post=129782:date=Feb 25 2006, 04:38 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 25 2006, 04:38 PM) [snapback]129782[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
What if her pride gets in the way? Don't you think that it is extremely difficult to talk about it, even to friends? Being humiliated and treated like dirt at home is bad enough, you don't need to advertise it to the world, do you?
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yes, it would be probably very difficult but it wouldn't add to the humiliation of the woman even if that's what she would feel at first.
That's a difficult subject and I'm not sure of anything.

What would you do yourself if you knew someone in that situation ?
 
[!--quoteo(post=129783:date=Feb 25 2006, 04:59 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 25 2006, 04:59 PM) [snapback]129783[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]...but it wouldn't add to the humiliation of the woman even if that's what she would feel at first.[/quote]What can be more humiliating than admitting that you have made a terrible, fatal mistake? Or admitting that you have feelings for the person who abuses you, or that your child loves that person. Or admitting that you are dependent on that person. Or that you are a coward...

[!--quoteo(post=129783:date=Feb 25 2006, 04:59 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 25 2006, 04:59 PM) [snapback]129783[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]What would you do yourself if you knew someone in that situation ?[/quote]I wish I knew.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
What can be more humiliating than...
[/quote]

Maybe overcoming such a humiliation can actually help the person to gain self-confidence, as absurd as it may sound. In a similar vein as to overcome your fear of heights by climbing a church tower.
 
I agree. But making the first step, as difficult as it is, is just the beginning of a long journey, in some countries even very long and painful.

And this prospect makes abused women think: "Maybe if I hold on and plod on a bit longer, things will be ok again. When the kids grow up, when he finds a job, when I lose weight... He can be nice, too, it's not that bad. Other women get beaten to death, I'm fine."
 
[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
What can be more humiliating than admitting that you have made a terrible, fatal mistake?
[/quote]
Divorces happen all the time for whatever reason(s). Marrying someone is not necessarily a "fatal" mistake.

[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Or admitting that you have feelings for the person who abuses you
[/quote]
This happens often when the woman has been mistreated during her childhood. Although her conscious mind revolts against the current abuser, a dark part of her thinks that it's "normal" and that it's "the way it should be, because it's always been like that." There's nothing to be ashamed of, it's simply the way the human psyche works. Measures still need to be taken, though. Because it is definitely not normal.

One step to take would be to rationalise the whole thing and try to analyse what those feelings towards the abuser are. Or the development of stronger feelings for another person - more sensible - could shift the whole situation, helping the woman to cope better with her ordeal until she can eventually find a way out.

[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Or admitting that [...] your child loves that person.
[/quote]
A child always loves both parents equally and that can be a problem. As was said before he/she identifies with both parents, therefore being empathic to the abuser and the abused. This conflicting situation can lead to serious psychological damage in the long run, and it seems reasonable to assume that life with only one parent, as difficult it may be at first, will allow the child to grow up without being torn between an abusive father - whom he/she loves 'cause it's daddy - and an abused mother he/she sees suffer and cannot do anything about (and frustration sets in). It is simply wrong to let a child grow to become either an abusive husband or an abused wife.

[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Or admitting that you are dependent on that person. Or that you are a coward...
[/quote]
The dependance is all quite subjective. It can be a problem financially, but friends and women's associations can be very helpful. Just to talk to at first, as it lifts a weight off the mistreated woman's shoulders, then for more material things like having a roof over her head (and that of her child/children's)

Cowardice has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. A woman has to be brave to face her husband's violence (either physical or psychological or both). She usually does it for the kids' sake, but, like I said, she's mistaken.

[!--quoteo(post=129832:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM) [snapback]129832[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I agree. But making the first step, as difficult as it is, is just the beginning of a long journey, in some countries even very long and painful.
[/quote]
Some countries are not as well catered for on a social point of view than others. But, come on, there are associations caring for abused women in places like Iran! They are everywhere and can help, I'm sure.

[!--quoteo(post=129832:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM) [snapback]129832[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]"Maybe if I hold on and plod on a bit longer, things will be ok again. [...]"
[/quote]
That's also a common mistake. By the time "things get better" -- if they ever do -- the damage is done and irreparable.

[!--quoteo(post=129832:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM) [snapback]129832[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]"[...]He can be nice, too, it's not that bad. Other women get beaten to death, I'm fine."
[/quote]
Another common misconception. The woman often hopes that the "nice" spells are an indication that the husband will eventually change his ways and become again the man they used to love. Male and female psychologies are pretty different in this respect too. Whereas she's trying to be nice to him -- cook his favourite meal, give him good sex, etc. -- in the hope that he'll be nice again, he see it as a "victory" and usually takes advantage of it, the "nice spells" becoming more and more few and far between. In the end, she willingly becomes his "thing", and he simply takes her for granted and exercises abusively his "rights as the master."


Basically, this is a pretty complex and very touchy subject. There's no easy way out and it is quite painful. The woman should however explore all her options, seek advice either from friends or professionals, but mostly she should know that she's not alone and that there are people who care for her and who are ready to help her.
 
What a great thread. It was a good read, all of you [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":)\" border=\"0\" alt=\"smile.gif\" /]
 
[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Or that you are a coward...[/quote]
It's not a question of cowardice.
The awful part of it is what is called the "victim syndrom". The person is the victim of any abuse, but the basic reaction for his/her is to feel guilty and to think that he/she is responsible for the abuse, that he/she provoked it, that he/she is at the root of it. To think otherwise may take years.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129857:date=Feb 26 2006, 10:29 PM:name=Le Hibou - The Owl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Le Hibou - The Owl @ Feb 26 2006, 10:29 PM) [snapback]129857[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]It's not a question of cowardice. [/quote]Of course not, in reality. The woman involved feels like a coward for not being able to step out of her situation.
 
But isn't that the point where the woman must step out of her situation?
 
Herself! And her desire to stop living under these conditions!
 
[!--quoteo(post=129829:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:27 PM) [snapback]129829[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
What can be more humiliating than admitting that you have made a terrible, fatal mistake? Or admitting that you have feelings for the person who abuses you, or that your child loves that person. Or admitting that you are dependent on that person. Or that you are a coward...

[/quote]

But admitting that you have made a mistake is in no way humilating. If the abused woman talks about her problems to someone I can hardly imagine that this person would say that she deserved it. On the contrary most people would feel sympathy and would try to help her or at least to be supportive.
But some people (like me) are unable to talk about their problems to their close friends which is why there are people whose job is to listen and to help because sometimes it's easier to talk to an unknow person who remains neutral.

[!--quoteo(post=129832:date=Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 26 2006, 04:40 PM) [snapback]129832[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I agree. But making the first step, as difficult as it is, is just the beginning of a long journey, in some countries even very long and painful.

And this prospect makes abused women think: "Maybe if I hold on and plod on a bit longer, things will be ok again. When the kids grow up, when he finds a job, when I lose weight... He can be nice, too, it's not that bad. Other women get beaten to death, I'm fine."
[/quote]


I guess that any women in that situation would have a thousand "good" reasons to stay whereas , objectively, they don't carry weight against the necessity of saving her life and her children's life.

I can understand that getting out of such a situation is a long walk on an unknow road but let me ask you one question : when you die if you find yourself in front of two doors , one on which is written "Hell" , one on which nothing is written , and you have to open one, which one would you open ?

Really all this really bring us back to problem of the lost of self-esteem and self-confidence. Yes it's hard to take an unknown road if she's not self-confident and that's why it's necessary to find some help.
 
First of all, here are some words to think about in this context:

I will not be pushed
I will not be stamped defiled
I will not be crushed
I am not your only child

I am not a freak
Object of your own desire
I am not ashamed
I am not your alibi

I stand alone but I can see
You won't bring me down
Through all this pain and misery
I'm not broken

Crushed
Crushed

I am not a pawn
This is not a game of chess
I am not a pin
stuck into your shiny vest

I am not a slave
I will do what I do best
Walking out on you
Take my life, leave the rest

I stand alone but I can see
You won't bring me down
Through all this pain and misery
I'm not broken

All the hatred, can't you see
You won't bring me down
All the light has set me free
I'm not broken

I stand alone but I can see
You won't bring me down
Through all this pain and misery
I'm not broken

All the hatred, can't you see
You won't bring me down
All the light has set me free
I'm not broken
I'm not broken

Next, there is another thing that occured to me. It can be the case that the abusing husband does not know he is abusing. If he treats his wife bad, but she just replies in kissing him when he comes home, cooking his favourite meal and all other sorts of private things, he cannot know he is an abuser. That is obvious. On the other hand, if the wife is just suffering, she doesn't really change anything either. Perhaps the best thing a woman can do if she is being abused is stand up to the man and say, quite simply and bluntly: "You are abusing me". I mean this literal. She is holding the mirror to the man, and the reflection is ugly. She should say precisely these words, not say "why are you abusing me?" (this is going back to the victim role) or "stop abusing me" (the agressive confrontation). She should say it cold and matter-of-factly, and then go out. Most men who are abusing their women, as I said, don't know that, and being labeled an abuser is probably something they never, ever wanted. Remember, even the abusing husband often loves his wife, and he does not know that he does something wrong. To the second and third person, it's obvious, but often not to the first person himself. This is a simple fact, it may be hard to understand, but that's the way it is.

I rest my case... for now.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129865:date=Feb 26 2006, 11:28 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 26 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]129865[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]...they don't carry weight against the necessity of saving her life and her children's life.[/quote]Obviously, if the abuse is physical or in other way a direct threat to health or life, the situation is different. In that case it's the instinct of self-preservation that often drives the woman from the situation.
But, as you yourself said, there are other, more subtle ways of abuse, that poison the victim bit by bit. Sometimes the woman wakes up, or someone else makes her wake up. Hopefully it's not too late.

[!--quoteo(post=129865:date=Feb 26 2006, 11:28 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 26 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]129865[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]...when you die if you find yourself in front of two doors , one on which is written "Hell" , one on which nothing is written , and you have to open one, which one would you open ?[/quote]That's a charming simile [img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/smile.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\":)\" border=\"0\" alt=\"smile.gif\" /] (You may enough about me by now as to guess which door I would open...)

[!--quoteo(post=129876:date=Feb 27 2006, 09:14 AM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Feb 27 2006, 09:14 AM) [snapback]129876[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Perhaps the best thing a woman can do if she is being abused is stand up to the man and say, quite simply and bluntly: "You are abusing me". [/quote]Exactly.
What Perun pointed out is a common problem. Abuse can be as inapparent as that. In a long relationship, people may become dull to each other's neeeds and they may hurt each other without realising it. If it's accompanied by a need to dominate the partner, damage can be done. In that case, the best thing for the lesser partner is to stand up for him/herself.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129878:date=Feb 27 2006, 09:53 AM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 27 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]129878[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Exactly.
What Perun pointed out is a common problem. Abuse can be as inapparent as that. In a long relationship, people may become dull to each other's neeeds and they may hurt each other without realising it. If it's accompanied by a need to dominate the partner, damage can be done. In that case, the best thing for the lesser partner is to stand up for him/herself.
[/quote]

I know from personal observation that this can happen in the best relationships. The husband believed he was treating his wife well. But the wife suffered from a lack of interest he showed towards her and believed they were drifting apart. She was thinking about a divorce, but decided to go an alternative way first, in order to attempt and save the marriage. She simply treated her husband in the same way. When he suffered from that, she wrote him a letter, and they started talking. I daresay that now their relationship is as good as it was at its previous pinnacle.
 
Disclaimer: I Do NOT think violence against women is ok

I've read somewhere (I'm sorry, I can't remember the exact citation) that domestic violence is an evolutionary development. It is well known that in hunter-gatherer societies, labour is usually divided thusly:
Males hunt for meat, which accounts for approximately 25-40% of the total nutrient intake.
Females gather roots, nuts, berries, plants, etc., which is 60-75% of the diet of the family.

In other words, females are responsible for the majority of the food consumed. This means that women tend to enjoy a relatively high status. They are equal in power and very rarely the victims of abuse; a woman who is mad at a man could simply refuse to gather food for a week and everyone would starve. Nearly all hunter-gather societies which have ever been observed are egalitarian in this manner, including modern ones (Kalahari tribes, New Guinea, etc.)

When humans began to practice agriculture, brute physical strength was the way to get food. No longer was the woman's knowledge of hundreds (literally hundreds!) of plants needed. Humans only planted a few dozen, and we needed only the endurance to harvest them. all arguments for equality aside, it cannot be denied that men are physically stronger than women, on average. Men, therefore, held all the power and women became objects rather than equals. When women were objectified, there was no recourse for them if they were abused. No longer could a woman weild the power her ancestors in hunter-gatherer times did. She was forced to simply take it.

Thankfully, there are some areas for hope: Many cultures, while not specifically outlaing violence against women, have at least made it taboo. (Hence you have many instances throughout history of brothers/fathers of abused women killing the husbands).
In the modern Western world, when most people do not work the land, most jobs require mental prowess rather than physical strength. In this regard, of course, women can compete with men. Women in the West are allowed to participate in the "knowledge workforce", and hence can bring in an equal share of the household income.
Of course, that assumes they are paid the same as men for equal work, which was the topic of the previous thread. And since violence is still happening, I doubt the issue is resolved yet. (But you have to admite, women in the Western world are alot better off than in most places)

I guess it all boils down to this: Whoever brings home the bacon makes the rules. If both partners bring home an equal share, it acts as a deterent to physical violence from one spouse to another.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129912:date=Feb 27 2006, 05:35 PM:name=IronDuke)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Feb 27 2006, 05:35 PM) [snapback]129912[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Many cultures, while not specifically outlaing violence against women, have at least made it taboo. [/quote]And that is precisely the problem. In some countries, if not in most, women are afraid of being labeled as bad wives, bad mothers, whiners and liars. All of that because domestic violence is taboo.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129878:date=Feb 27 2006, 09:53 AM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 27 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]129878[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Obviously, if the abuse is physical or in other way a direct threat to health or life, the situation is different. In that case it's the instinct of self-preservation that often drives the woman from the situation.
But, as you yourself said, there are other, more subtle ways of abuse, that poison the victim bit by bit. Sometimes the woman wakes up, or someone else makes her wake up. Hopefully it's not too late.
[/quote]

By "saving her life" I didn't meant from death, I meant from being spoiled. So it includes all kind of abuses, not just physical ones.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129921:date=Feb 27 2006, 06:11 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 27 2006, 06:11 PM) [snapback]129921[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]...from being spoiled.[/quote]I see.
Well, the life of an abused child or woman is already spoiled. Sadly. But there is usually hope that the poison won't spread.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129919:date=Feb 27 2006, 01:03 PM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 27 2006, 01:03 PM) [snapback]129919[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
And that is precisely the problem. In some countries, if not in most, women are afraid of being labeled as bad wives, bad mothers, whiners and liars. All of that because domestic violence is taboo.
[/quote]

What I meant by that is that violence against women is, in most societies, generally frowned upon.
Though you do bring up a good point - it's not discussed enough. If people were more aware of it, there might be something done to stop it.
 
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