Women In The World Subject N°2

syl

syl

Ancient Mariner
First an advertisement from Amnesty International
violences_domestiques.gif


I can see it every day on my way to work and it says : “Violence against women is a universal sport”.
( and I would add , timeless)
Then, some statistics
In November 2005, the french government published the following data : a woman dies after being beaten by her partner every four days. More than half of those women have been victims of domestic violence previously.
1 women out of 10 is a victim of domestic violence
1 women out of 20 is a victim of physical violence
The statistics are as frightening as these in other countries

There are several forms of domestic violence : verbal, physical, psychological, sexual, economic and according to psychologists the verbal and psychological violence can do as much harm as the physical violence. A women who has been insulted for weeks or months or years can loose all self-esteem , suffer from depression and commit suicide.
I think this form of violence is even more perverse than the physical violence because it’s harder too proove it as it’s invisible and as in most cases the woman will try to hide it from her family and friends.

If you want to understand the cycle of domestic violence, the possible reason for it and the reason why most women don’t try to leave their husband, I suggest that you have a look at this site. It also includes more statistics here.

This really made me think, especially the fact that domestic violence concerns 10% of women.
Among my friends, relatives and collegues there’s about 100 couples which means that statistically I know 10 women victims of domestic violence and this I can not imagine.

But if i think again about it, I remember when I arrived in my company 7 years ago, my collegues were sometimes talking of a girl who has just left the company and everybody knew that her boyfriend used to beat her. I didn’t know her personnally but I’ll count her for one.
From things I have witnessed, I’m also quite sure that my boss has perpetrated psychological and verbal violence on his wife a few years ago.
Finally a friend told me recently about a woman he knows, who according to what he said, seems to be a victim of verbal, psychological and maybe sexual violence.

Who are the potential 7 other ones ? I have no idea. I can not imagine any of my close friends and relatives in that situation and it’s even more difficult to imagine their boyfriends or husbands being the perpetrators of the violence.

More links if you're interested in the subject :

The World Health Organization has published a report on violence : read chapter 4 about domestic violence

Amnesty international about violence against women in France
 
I personally do not know any person who (to my knowledge) would ever mistreat a woman; in fact most openly despise this and respect women (there are some black sheep who seem to see women only as sex objects, but even they do not seem to support any kind of mistreatment). However, people I know repeatedly tell me one of their female friends has been raped. This is something that scares me.

Sorry, can't write much more at the moment, but I'll see if I can post some more tomorrow.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129640:date=Feb 23 2006, 11:35 PM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Feb 23 2006, 11:35 PM) [snapback]129640[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I personally do not know any person who (to my knowledge) would ever mistreat a woman;[/quote]


That's one of the main problem. The man who beats his wife usually looks perfectly normal, has a normal social life and if you meet the couple you'll have no idea that something is going wrong as they'll both try to keep up appearances and as the violence only happens in a private circle.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129642:date=Feb 23 2006, 11:01 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 23 2006, 11:01 PM) [snapback]129642[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
That's one of the main problem. The man who beats his wife usually looks perfectly normal, has a normal social life and if you meet the couple you'll have no idea that something is going wrong as they'll both try to keep up appearances and as the violence only happens in a private circle.
[/quote]
I am totally disgusted by woman beaters. I have been married for twelve years, and have been with my wife for nineteen years and never once layed a hand on her (which she didn't want ). I agree with syl, as my sister was beaten by her husband for nearly four years, and although i liked her husband at the time, i never knew what was going on behind the scenes until my four year old nephew told me that "Daddy hits me and mammy and makes us cry". I asked her in confidence cos i am her big brother and she knew that she could come to me, but she said there wasn't a problem, although i could see it in her eyes. I would not let her go home. The arsehole came screaming at my door and then i knew straight away. I went out to him and told him straight. You touch my sister and you get hit, but as i said these words i was as bad as him threatening violence. Although i meant every word. I bought a house four doors down from where i live and rent it out to my sister, so i can keep an eye on her and her problems, but not everybody is lucky to have family to support them. There should be more organisations to protect women. But like syl says, you can never detect what is going on.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129642:date=Feb 24 2006, 12:01 AM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 24 2006, 12:01 AM) [snapback]129642[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
That's one of the main problem. The man who beats his wife usually looks perfectly normal, has a normal social life and if you meet the couple you'll have no idea that something is going wrong as they'll both try to keep up appearances and as the violence only happens in a private circle.
[/quote]

Yes, that is true. I am also quite suspicious of people (men) who say rapists and people who beat women should be punished with cutting of the redspective parts of their bodies or other draconic punishments. It is usually in a more harsh tone than the conversation was calling for, and I tend to think that people who act that way have something they are trying to conceal.

There are cases where men beat their wives exactly once. These men usually consider it the worst thing they ever did afterwards and never do it again. They usually are the most loving husbands too.
 
Before I reply properly into this thread, I'd like to let you ponder those lyrics:


Family Business
by Fish (1990)

I heard a battle raging on the other side of the wall
I buried my head in a pillow and tried to ignore it all.
Every night when I hear you I dream of breaking down your door
An avenging knight in shining armour, to rescue you from it all.

From this family business, family business
How long does it stay, family business.
It’s nobody’s business, this family business,
But tell me how long it remains family business.

When I see you at the supermarket, sunglasses in the shade
Averting your eyes from those staring questions, how were those bruises made?
The children clutch tight to your legs, they’ve got so much they want to say
But daddy’s sitting home, drunk again so they bite their lips and pray
Cos daddy don’t like people poking in his private affairs
And if anyone asks from the social, well, you tripped and fell down the stairs.

It’s family business, keep it in the family business.
Can you tell me how long it remains family business?
It’s nobody’s business, this family business.
But tell me how long it should stay family business.

She’s waiting at the bus stop at the bottom of the hill
She know’s she’ll never catch it, she knows she never will.
The kids are all she lives for, she’s got nothing left to lose,
Nowhere to escape to, but she knows she’s got to move.
Cos when daddy tucks the kids in, it’s taking longer every night.

It’s family business, keep it in the family business.
Can you tell me how long it reamins family business?
It’s nobody’s business, this family business.
But tell me how long it should stay family business.

So I become an accessory and I don’t have an alibi
To the victim on my doorstep the only way I can justify.

It’s family business, family business.
How long do we keep it family business?

[img src=\"style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/sleep.gif\" style=\"vertical-align:middle\" emoid=\"-_-\" border=\"0\" alt=\"sleep.gif\" /]
 
Things that happen in private are nobody's business but the people involved.

Torture and abuse of people is everybody's business.

We are at a point where two conflicting factors meet.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129656:date=Feb 24 2006, 11:28 AM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Feb 24 2006, 11:28 AM) [snapback]129656[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]We are at a point where two conflicting factors meet.[/quote]There is no conflict. Only that the first point is the cause of the fact that so many cases of domestic violence stay hidden from justice.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129656:date=Feb 24 2006, 11:28 AM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Feb 24 2006, 11:28 AM) [snapback]129656[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Things that happen in private are nobody's business but the people involved.

Torture and abuse of people is everybody's business.

We are at a point where two conflicting factors meet.
[/quote]

I like conflicts when they're easy to solve
If what happens in private is a violation of the law then police, justice, national assistance, witnesses ... are involved.
Conflict solved.

And if you know a woman who suffers domestic violence your duty is to do something to help her.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129693:date=Feb 24 2006, 08:58 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 24 2006, 08:58 PM) [snapback]129693[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
And if you know a woman who suffers domestic violence your duty is to do something to help her.
[/quote]

Fortunately, none of the women I know suffer from that. But if I knew one, I would help her. My post was in response to Maverick; I personally believe that abuse of a person is where privacy stops.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129640:date=Feb 23 2006, 11:35 PM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Feb 23 2006, 11:35 PM) [snapback]129640[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
there are some black sheep who seem to see women only as sex objects, but even they do not seem to support any kind of mistreatment.[/quote]
That's a kind of violence : seeing women as objects, these guys are denying them their humanity.
Most men don't understand that. Try to think what it could be to be considered on a regular basis as a thing, as "something" "which" can be use then throw away.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129696:date=Feb 24 2006, 09:16 PM:name=Le Hibou - The Owl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Le Hibou - The Owl @ Feb 24 2006, 09:16 PM) [snapback]129696[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
That's a kind of violence : seeing women as objects, these guys are denying them their humanity.
Most men don't understand that. Try to think what it could be to be considered on a regular basis as a thing, as "something" "which" can be use then throw away.
[/quote]

I agree with you there, and I despise men who act that way, but most who I know do not show this to the women... until they drop them, I suppose. They just talk that cowardly way, behind the woman's back.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129693:date=Feb 24 2006, 08:58 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 24 2006, 08:58 PM) [snapback]129693[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]And if you know a woman who suffers domestic violence your duty is to do something to help her.[/quote]Do what? What exactly would you do?
 
Convice her to leave the sick bastard... if that doesen't work, call in a social worker, he should know what to do....
 
[!--quoteo(post=129725:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:26 AM:name=Black Ace)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Black Ace @ Feb 25 2006, 12:26 AM) [snapback]129725[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Convice her to leave the sick bastard... if that doesen't work, call in a social worker, he should know what to do....[/quote]This is all too easy. What if the abuse is not so violent, let's say just psychological? What if she doesn't want to, because she's afraid of bad financial situation, prejudice, leaving the children fatherless (who would marry her with kids, when she's lost all her self-esteem)?
 
If the abuse is not too violent but psychological i really don't see any other options besides leaving the man.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129727:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:29 AM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 25 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]129727[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
This is all too easy. What if the abuse is not so violent, let's say just psychological? What if she doesn't want to, because she's afraid of bad financial situation, prejudice, leaving the children fatherless (who would marry her with kids, when she's lost all her self-esteem)?
[/quote]

I would advise that woman to:

[*] Treat her husband the same way. Sometimes it doesn't work, but often, it can work miracles.
[*] Convince herself that she does not have to be a victim.
[*] When time has come, sit down with her husband and talk about the matter. Openly. Or, if she feels unable to do that, wait for a situation when she and her husband are sepparated (for example, when he has to travel somewhere for a few days), write him a letter for him to read at that time.

Just a few ideas. I'm sure there is more one could do in such a situation.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129732:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:42 AM:name=fuzzboy)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(fuzzboy @ Feb 25 2006, 12:42 AM) [snapback]129732[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]I really don't see any other options besides leaving the man.[/quote]Have you read my entire post or just the first two sentences?

I really don't like stereotype thinking on any front (although, like any normal human being, I'm by far not immune to it). Everyone seems to know that domestic or child abuse is horrible and our duty is to do something about it. However, the thing is much more complex than what statistics and institutionalised help alone could solve.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129720:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:09 AM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 25 2006, 12:09 AM) [snapback]129720[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
Do what? What exactly would you do?
[/quote]


[!--quoteo(post=129727:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:29 AM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 25 2006, 12:29 AM) [snapback]129727[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
This is all too easy. What if the abuse is not so violent, let's say just psychological? What if she doesn't want to, because she's afraid of bad financial situation, prejudice, leaving the children fatherless (who would marry her with kids, when she's lost all her self-esteem)?
[/quote]


[!--quoteo(post=129734:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:47 AM:name=SilentLucidity)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(SilentLucidity @ Feb 25 2006, 12:47 AM) [snapback]129734[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]

I really don't like stereotype thinking on any front (although, like any normal human being, I'm by far not immune to it). Everyone seems to know that domestic or child abuse is horrible and our duty is to do something about it. However, the thing is much more complex than what statistics and institutionalised help alone could solve.
[/quote]


I can't say "exactly" what I would do because I never had to do that and because any precise answer would be stereotyped.

Most of abused women tend to isolate themselves so I guess I would first let her know that I know her situation and that I'm upset for her.

Then as you said, every situation is different. If it's an obvious case of physical violence and if there are evidences like bruises, I would try to convince her to denounce her husband to the police and if necessary I would do it myself (if I dare) because as I said before it's not a private affair.

Now, in the case of psychological violence, I think I would try to be supportive, I would let her understand that she can rely on me and above all I would try to make her talk about her situation. Of course it won't solve the problem but talking and knowing that she's not alone may restore a bit of self-confidence the woman has lost. On the other hand, prooving psychological abuse is difficult, that's why the woman has to inform people ( friends and relatives, collegues at work) of her situation so that they can testify of how bad she felt if necessary.

I guess I would also try to convince her to get in touch with a women association in order to analyze her situation objectively, give solutions and show her that other women have been able to get out of a similar situation.

[!--quoteo(post=129733:date=Feb 25 2006, 12:45 AM:name=Perun)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Perun @ Feb 25 2006, 12:45 AM) [snapback]129733[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]
I would advise that woman to:

[*] Treat her husband the same way. Sometimes it doesn't work, but often, it can work miracles.
[*] Convince herself that she does not have to be a victim.

[/quote]

I think you have a major point Perun, domestic violence is all about dominating the other. In most of couple one dominate (more or less) and one is dominated (more or less) and the roles can also change in some couples. Physical and psychological violence are means to achieve the domination on the other one.
I take the opportunity to mention the fact that (in France) 10% of victims of domestic violence are men and that they suffer often psychological abuse but also physical violence though they are strong enough to stop their wife but they don't.

So you're right Perun, one way for the woman to get out of her situation would be to reverse the roles. But I'm afraid this is impossible for most of them as they have lost the necessary self-confidence to do that.



One more thing about the children. SilentLucidity you mention the case in which the woman doesn't want her children to be fatherless. But is it better to grow up with a violent father , though the violence is not directed against them ?
It is well known , that a person who has lived in a violent environment during his childhood ( especially as a young child) has more chance to reproduce violence as an adult and that's very easy to understand.

A young child has two major examples in life : one is the father and one is the mother
A young child identify himself : half to the father and half to the mother
For a young child : the father is representative of all males, the mother is representative of all females.

Thereby, if one of the parents, let's say the father, is violent with the mother, he's doing harm (psychologically) to his child too because the child partly identifies to the mother.
But at the same time the father is an example and if the situation lasts for a long time, then it becomes the norm for the children who might follow his father's example (rather if it's a boy), or his mother's example (rather if it's a girl) and extend those examples to all the male population and to all the female population. Which means that he would consider (unconsciously) that all men are/ have to be violent and all females are / have to be abused.
Of course the child's feelings are conflicting and may cause stress and lost of self-esteem like the mother

As an adult, he will have learnt that domestic violence is not the norm but then again there will be a conflict (again unconsciously) between what he has learnt from his parents and what he has learnt from other sources (school, medias, church teaching) . The result is that the adult has more chance to be violent if he has lived in a violent environment than if he hasn't.

That's valuable too if the violence is directed against the child which is why during trials against violent or incestuous parents we often learn that they were themselves abused when they were children by their own parents

OK, I admit that was highly stereotyped and that every case is different but this is basically what's happening in a child's mind.

To conclude : the best thing that could happen to a child whom father is violent is to be separated from him, at least temporarily, and that someone who personify authority explains to him that what happened to his mother was bad, although it was done by his father and that he shouldn't do the same.
Again with the example of incest, this is why psychologists considered that the abused child have to be present at the trial for the verdict so that he understands that his parents are criminals and that they deserve to be punished.
 
[!--quoteo(post=129780:date=Feb 25 2006, 04:16 PM:name=syl)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(syl @ Feb 25 2006, 04:16 PM) [snapback]129780[/snapback][/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]On the other hand, prooving psychological abuse is difficult, that's why the woman has to inform people ( friends and relatives, collegues at work) of her situation so that they can testify of how bad she felt if necessary.[/quote]
What if her pride gets in the way? Don't you think that it is extremely difficult to talk about it, even to friends? Being humiliated and treated like dirt at home is bad enough, you don't need to advertise it to the world, do you?
 
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