Why did Steve Harris fire Clive Burr ?

[Pibroch_Whistler]

regarding the "Clive was throwing up in a bucket next to his kit" often during the NotB tour - it's within the realm of possibility that Clive indulged just as much (or only a little bit more) than other band members, but given his pre-diabetic condition, he was less fit to handle any indulgence - and since his diabetes hadn't been diagnosed (yet), perhaps other band members misattributed his sickliness to alcohol and drug use.

 

[Pibroch_Whistler]

There are a couple of Metallica-like moments on Burr albums where drums are actually following the rhythm guitars and not bass - most apparent on the Twilight Zone. There are no such moments post 1982.

This is indeed interesting. I've always had a huge soft spot for Twilight Zone - it rocks hard but has a certain swagger and swing feel to it. Perhaps because Clive was following the rhythm guitars instead of the bass?

 

[Deleted member 7164]

Yes I think so too.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

I had a chat with an insider yesterday (he was with Maiden when they were supporting Scorpions the first week of September) and he told me that Clive was still very much there. He also mentioned that there were growing issues of party time behaviour and Harry was displeased.

I'm re-reading this thread. It may be possible that this has been said meanwhile but I can't escape this thought; there was nothing that wrong with Clive on stage. There are people who don't always behave all friendly when under substances and it's possible that Clive's behaviour off stage triggered his firing. I'm not talking shitting on other bands while high cause we don't have anything to back it up with, but in the case of the inflated ego lashing out on the road crew, I think Harris would have none of that.

 

[MindRuler]

Often hitting the stage while nursing a hangover.

Better than hanging over the stage and hitting a nurse.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

Better than staging a hanging while hitting on a nurse.

 

[GhostofCain]

I'm re-reading this thread. It may be possible that this has been said meanwhile but I can't escape this thought; there was nothing that wrong with Clive on stage. There are people who don't always behave all friendly when under substances and it's possible that Clive's behaviour off stage triggered his firing. I'm not talking shitting on other bands while high cause we don't have anything to back it up with, but in the case of the inflated ego lashing out on the road crew, I think Harris would have none of that.

The band seem to disagree with that!

"Despite his obvious talent and his charming demeanor, the much-admired drummer was another casualty of the rock’n’roll lifestyle that came with Maiden’s growing popularity in the early 1980s. Previously reliable on stage, Burr started having performance trouble on the 1982 Beast On The Road tour. Often hitting the stage while nursing a hangover, just the same as certain other people in the band, Burr started to let his playing suffer. Cardinal sin. Harris wouldn’t tolerate it for long.

Guitarist Adrian Smith recalls the trouble of “keeping it together for the rest of us when he was having an off night, which he was having more and more as time went by.” And Harris, by then used to band members succumbing to the lifestyle, and worried about getting through the tour, remembers a night when Burr “spent most of the gig throwing up into a bucket at the side of his kit.”

“It got to everybody, in the end,” says Smith. And so, at the conclusion of the tour in December 1982, Clive Burr was asked to leave the band that had made him famous."

From http://maidenrevelations.com/2012/11/09/feature-friday-maiden-exits/

 

[Black Abyss Babe]

From what Steve and Adrian say the issue seems to have been that he had become unreliable, not that he was routinely bad.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

@GhostofCain remember we did sample quite a number of bootlegs from that "questionable" period and found no evidence of bad drums.

Also cocaine tends to make drummers better, not worse. It's an upper not a downer. Also cocaine does not hamper the digestive system the way other uppers do and it really doesn't have a prolonged effect like amphetamine, and it is the #1 drug of choice for rich people because of that. They can be high throughout the day and still have a dinner and a good night's sleep. They could've blamed anything else, and I would believe it more. Drummer takes a drug that opens up the cardiovascular system - gets worse. Sounds like The Onion article.

Anyways I think the drug/party thing was just a catalyst and that supposed Clive's unreliability on stage isn't impaired performance, but some beef with Steve and wanting to play the things your own way. It is remarkable how bandmates accuse him of not keeping it together, it means they hear something we don't, one can conclude that it isn't the basic flow and sound that Clive fucked up on stage but some sort of rhythmic cohesion they had going on, he was prone to break it and go swinging. Clive's indulgences may be the consequence of that musical rift, not the cause.

Meanwhile they had a #1 album and a great drummer nonetheless. They undertook a half-year process of making Clive replaceable. As he was drifting away from the band he was making himself more replaceable as the days pass because the authorities of the band started spending more and more time on finding replacement.

What actually happened to Clive isn't that important to me, as long as no great injustice has been done to him. This is a tough topic and we're talking about people not with us anymore. In many angles it is a fucked up discussion. But. The prevailing opinion in early days/DiAnno bunch is that Harris fired Burr because he wanted to play with Nicko. While I believe the truth to be - creative differences between Harris/Burr cannot be dealt with and became a fight at some point, Burr got distant from the band, the drugs and stuff are the cover because Maiden never talks about fights in between band members.

Actually Clive being Clive, a top drummer, prolonged his period in the band and possibly his skills might've lent him enough time to start seeing things "the Harris way". Alas it didn't happen. But if he was any less of a drummer he'd be kicked out before because you can't be a drummer in Maiden and not listen to Steve Harris.

Years after Clive has a rosy memory of the Number of the Beast (his #1 album). Old feuds are forgotten, he's ill and his old comrades come to his aid. Everything is being tossed on the table as the reason for his departure, apart from the one I believe weighs most - Clive and Maiden simply weren't a match anymore after mid 1982. He knew it and the band knew it.

 

[Black Abyss Babe]

Adrian's next book might shed some light on a dark subject ...

 

[Ruflux]

Cocaine certainly doesn't make a drummer worse, if anyone's ever claimed that, they're talking complete and utter bullshit. For further information, recommend researching Nicko McBrain.

e: Hell, sometimes it even makes shitty drummers good. See Lars Ulrich in the 80s and 90s.

 

[GhostofCain]

@GhostofCain remember we did sample quite a number of bootlegs from that "questionable" period and found no evidence of bad drums.

Don’t shoot the messenger mate! I have just included quotes from band members who were playing with Clive in 1982 and felt he did not cut the mustard. I could have added Bruce’s quote about going on stage with a pillow because Clive was playing at such a slow tempo too.

Although the break-up of Clive’s working relationship with Steve was probably the cause of his demise, it seems that not only Steve was unhappy with their drummer’s performance in 1982.

 

[Mosh]

I’m sorry but I don’t buy that. We have the tapes. Obviously Maiden’s management is shrewd enough to make sure that everyone is on the same page about why Clive left. Come on, this is the same band that we poke fun of for obviously fabricating band member quotes in press releases.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

Don’t shoot the messenger mate!

No such thing intended...and there are a lot of unrecorded nights.
It is just quite weird that there's no trace of something out of the ordinary at those that we have.

 

[Black Abyss Babe]

sometimes it even makes shitty drummers good. See Lars Ulrich in the 80s and 90s.

Touche!

 

[prowlerman]

The Clive Burr situation is one I’ve wondered about for a long time. I’ve read various articles and books over the years where his sacking was referred to.

I did hear some new information the other day. Clive of course got together with Dee Snider and Bernie Torme in the late 80s in Desperado. In fact, to my 18-year-old self it seemed a dream ticket as I grew up on a diet of Maiden, Gillan and Twisted Sister.

Bernie died a couple of years ago and I’m glad I had the chance to see him live during his final flurry of touring and recording. I watched a lengthy interview yesterday where he spoke about his career and during the Desperado section, Bernie expressed his frustration at the band not really giving it a shot on stage (apparently Dee turned down a tour with Motorhead). Bernie was convinced they would have went down well - “particularly with having Clive in the line-up. He was amazing”

The interviewer then asked what Clive was like as a person (Bernie had been at the funeral the previous year). There followed a few words about Clive being a really warm and funny guy, always ready to take the piss but would do anything for you etc.

“But very dangerous when asked to handle money [laughter]. Went straight up his nose [more laughs]. I mean for f**k’s sake Clive!”

Frustratingly, the video ends at that point. So it appears Clive was shoving large amounts of Charlie up his hooter years after leaving Maiden. Sounds like there was a bit of an issue there.

 

[Deleted member 7164]

Yeah, bit of an issue. A massive bit if you try to read between the lines and put the things in context.

If Keith Richards goes public saying prowlerman has an issue with drugs, it's a hell of a statement compared to some nun saying the exact same words.

Dickinson and Smith aren't Keith but they're closer to Keith than to a nun.

 

[Perun]

You don't know what that nun did before she joined the order!

 

[paulfan]

Bruce said in the book that Clive slowed down the pace during the Beast on the Road shows and thats one the reasons they fired Clive. I find that unbelievable claim cause even though during to Killers tour was the fastest they ever played, when Nicko joined the live stuff slowed down 5 times more so why complain about Clive? I have listened to all of the available Beast on the Road bootlegs and Clive sounds tight as hell in every show. The only show i found with even a hint of the pace slowing does was this one

To be fair it sounds like he drums slower in this than the other shows, but its not by much. I think the stuff about Clive playing badly and hungover is incorrect it was just a personality clash with Steve. For some reason they cant admit that. Maiden has always been known for lying stuff about their history and this is just one example. Its just bizarre why Steve could not admit that he just did not like Clive`s personality. Maybe he is afraid of painting an Hitler like image of himself.

 

[Luisma]

Bruce said in the book that Clive slowed down the pace during the Beast on the Road shows and thats one the reasons they fired Clive. I find that unbelievable claim cause even though during to Killers tour was the fastest they ever played, when Nicko joined the live stuff slowed down 5 times more so why complain about Clive? I have listened to all of the available Beast on the Road bootlegs and Clive sounds tight as hell in every show. The only show i found with even a hint of the pace slowing does was this one

To be fair it sounds like he drums slower in this than the other shows, but its not by much. I think the stuff about Clive playing badly and hungover is incorrect it was just a personality clash with Steve. For some reason they cant admit that. Maiden has always been known for lying stuff about their history and this is just one example. Its just bizarre why Steve could not admit that he just did not like Clive`s personality. Maybe he is afraid of painting an Hitler like image of himself.

There are many reasons why they had to let Clive go as I explain in my book which you can get here bit.ly/3wuKMJ5. The reasons were explained to me by a person who worked closely with the band between 1980-1990, Keith Wilfort and Adrian Smith. And can be summarized as follows:

Clive was having personal problems (family and girl friend) since the beginning of '82. While the band was in the UK, things were kind of sorted because the proximity of his relatives, friends and girl friend but as soon as the band went outside of the UK, things started to get complicated. The band was obviously getting bigger by the minute and with fame, as both Adrian and Bruce comment on their book, access to drugs and booze become much easier. Now, imagine young Clive having to sort his personal problems, being famous and having access to drugs and booze and really no one to rely upon because you're the young and handsome drummer of a now World famous Heavy Metal band, what do you do? Overindulge... He was given four opportunites to sort himself up (all well explained in the book), the last being after the Beast On The Road tour on December 10, but ALAS two things happen during the last weeks of December. First, the relationship with his girlfriend ends in a bad way and secondly, and more important, Clive's dad dies. This is all too much for Clive and the band (Steve) has no other option but to let Clive go because there was no chance at all they can give him more time to sort himself up before they had to go to Jersey to start work on Album No. 4.