Why A Matter Of Life and Death is Iron Maidens best album

[Perun]

How is what Foro just said not pigeonholing? They're just throwing everything they think is "Metal" into the same corner. "Differentiated opinions": no idea what you mean here.

When Foro precisely stated that he knows people that dislike some pop artists, I find that differentiated, not pigeonholed. Some does not mean all. It means there is a process of differentiation at work.

Is there any difference between a pop singer who records music written by someone else and a metal vocalist who does not write the music or lyrics for the band they front?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on a fairly large number of factors. There are musicians who will collaborate with songwriters and producers, because they are performing artists, not musicians in the sense of conceiving and writing music. That doesn't mean they don't put their heart and soul into their performance, and make it their own. But there are also cases in which the producer is the centre of action. He writes music that is not so much an expression of an artistic vision, but a precisely calculated stab at a mass market that is then performed by an individual from a talent pool of marketable performers. That's not art, just show business.
These are of course two extreme points, and I guess that any point on the spectrum exists.

As for Beyonce, i love the fact people are debating her credibility here. To be honest, if you think a bunch of hired writers for a super corperate record label create music that is vital, i feel sorry for you. It took 6 writers and 4 producers to come up with this:

Girls, we run this mother (yeah)
Girls, we run this mother (yeah)
Girls, we run this mother (yeah)
Girls, we run this mother
Girls

Chores:
Who run the world? Girls (x4)
Who run this mother? Girls (x4)
Who run the world? Girls (x4)

It only took 1 writer and one producer to come up with this:

Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide
No escape from reality
Open your eyes
Look up to the skies and see
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy
Because I'm "easy come, easy go"
Little high, little low
Any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter to me, to
me.

Yeah, I've seen that picture on my Facebook page too. It's an extreme example focusing entirely on lyrics that doesn't really say awfully much when you think about it.

..as for 'metal heads' they just don't even exist anymore. Even back in the 90's you would see legit 'metal heads' at concerts, they had the stereotypical unwashed long shoulder length hair, a leather jacket, spots, usually lacking a girlfriend, they NEVER listened to anything other than the likes of Maiden, Slayer, Metallica and the rest. I went to school with kids like this. Today, everyone has generally short hair, looks the same, dresses the same, and has a bunch of different musical genres on their ipod or MP3. There are really no gangs in music anymore.

I happen to know a good number of people like those you described, and I also have absolutely no idea what your point is.

 

[mckindog]

The business of music and the art of music are so dependent on each other they are impossible to disentangle.

Like everyone on this site, I hold the work of Maiden at the artistic level in the highest esteem.
But it would be foolish to say marketing has not played a huge role in making them the success they are.

I'll start simply with the eye-catching branding of Eddie, which inspired more than a few of those spotted denim-wearers to buy Killers without ever hearing a note.
Miley freaking Cyrus owns a t-shirt.

It's marketing I happen to enjoy, but there are others who were/are put off by it and dismiss Maiden out of hand because of it.

Sure, some pop svengali cast around to find the perfect mix of looks, attitude and ability in five performers, married them to some gifted songwriters, studio magicians and publicists and produced the Spice Girls.

But really, how different is that from Steve Harris casting around to find a pair of uber-cool blond guitar heroes, a manic drummer and a bombastic singer with a big personality and a bigger voice, marrying them to the talents of Rod Smallwood, Martin Birch and Derek Riggs and producing Iron Maiden?

You're going to say its because Steve started with an artistic vision and everything else arose around that, while the Spice Girls started as a business venture and everything else arose around that. And I'd agree.
But it's not as cut-and-dried as some would like to think.

An artist's work speaks to you on some level, or it doesn't.
An artist's persona connects with you on some level, or it doesn't.

And it is entirely subjective.

 

[Forostar]

An artist's work speaks to you on some level, or it doesn't.
An artist's persona connects with you on some level, or it doesn't.

Is this "cut-and-dried"?

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

No, it's subjective.

 

[Forostar]

Sure, some pop svengali cast around to find the perfect mix of looks, attitude and ability in five performers, married them to some gifted songwriters, studio magicians and publicists and produced the Spice Girls.

But really, how different is that from Steve Harris casting around to find a pair of uber-cool blond guitar heroes, a manic drummer and a bombastic singer with a big personality and a bigger voice, marrying them to the talents of Rod Smallwood, Martin Birch and Derek Riggs and producing Iron Maiden?

Very, very different. Maiden kept writing their own songs, had own vision. Don't sound like 13 in a dozen, Did what they want, what they could. It isn't plastic, it isn't fake. It isn't done by others. Of course Maiden didn't do it all alone. There's a huge crew. I never said that hiring Rod was a bad idea and that Eddie and video clips didn't attribute to their success. But the core of what this is all about, that comes from the band members.

You're going to say its because Steve started with an artistic vision and everything else arose around that, while the Spice Girls started as a business venture and everything else arose around that. And I'd agree.
But it's not as cut-and-dried as some would like to think.

I find the differences quite clear.

An artist's work speaks to you on some level, or it doesn't.

Yes

An artist's persona connects with you on some level, or it doesn't.

Yes, but I would also add to these statements:
Artistic integrity is important to you on some level or it isn't.

And it is entirely subjective.

Yes.

But I think that lots of factors play a role and wouldn't say it is as cut-and-dried (I looked it up and now know what it means ;-) as what you said about speaking and connecting (you're right, but there's so much behind that).

 

[mckindog]

As far as my personal views go, I agree completely.
I was trying to point out how Maiden has just as many marketing trappings as many of the acts metalheads despise, and how - superficially at least - people could see elements of that as being as contrived and/or calculated as anything the Spice Girls ever did.

Very, very different. Maiden kept writing their own songs, had own vision. Don't sound like 13 in a dozen, Did what they want, what they could. It isn't plastic, it isn't fake. It isn't done by others. Of course Maiden didn't do it all alone. There's a huge crew. I never said that hiring Rod was a bad idea and that Eddie and video clips didn't attribute to their success. But the core of what this is all about, that comes from the band members.

I find the differences quite clear.

Yes

Yes, but I would also add to these statements:
Artistic integrity is important to you on some level or it isn't.

Yes.

But I think that lots of factors play a role and wouldn't say it is as cut-and-dried (I looked it up and now know what it means ;-) as what you said about speaking and connecting (you're right, but there's so much behind that).

 

[Forostar]

Agreed, we do not have to be blind for these elements.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

I as trying to point out how Maiden has just as many marketing trappings as many of the acts metalheads despise, and how - superficially at least - people could see elements of that as being as contrived and/or calculated as anything the Spice Girls ever did.

That's what I was basically trying to say, Foro; just not that well!

 

[Lego]

I agree that Maiden is a massive brand/marketing machine, but I'd just like to add that my first exposure to the group was through burned CD-R copies of Piece of Mind, Powerslave, and Ed Hunter from a friend. I had no idea what the logo looked like, that Eddie existed, or why/how the Powerslave tour was so culturally relevant. Perhaps this is part of the reason why I was so open to Maiden's newer material, because I did not have a preconcieved notion of what they, as a "brand", were supposed to look/sound like.

 

[Shadow]

I couldn't care less about the personal motivations of Steve Harris or anybody else (except as a secondary interest in the people behind my favourite music). While it's true that the very best music is usually created by people with an artistic vision of their own, I don't see why a cynically marketed commercial artist is intrinsically worse than somebody pursuing a heartfelt personal vision. The only thing that matters is whether the final product is interesting and/or enjoyable or not. Mass-produced commercial blandness is irritating, but so are the endless streams of sincere but talentless "real" artists.

Neither do I understand why it's so important to write your own material. Being a good singer or musician doesn't necessarily mean you can write. Imagine what might have happened if, say, Jimi Hendrix had teamed up with a good songwriter.

 

[Shadow]

Yeah, I've seen that picture on my Facebook page too. It's an extreme example focusing entirely on lyrics that doesn't really say awfully much when you think about it.

Especially considering that "Bohemian Rhapsody" isn't exactly a paragon of good lyrics.

 

[Eric Wright]

I could really care less about Maiden's commercialism. Sure, they definitely are the most popular and mainstream metal band on the planet, but does that really matter when it comes to enjoying their music? Honestly this all stems from pretentious douchebags who like to make themselves look like they're intellectual and eclectic by bashing anything that people happen to like. A senior who had graduated last year exclusively listened to "underground black metal" and made a case on bashing everyone's taste in music on "intellectual grounds". I'm a classically trained cellist and lover of classical music (who are usually stereotyped to be snobs) yet even I hold Iron Maiden in great esteem for their artistic value. As an audiophile, I listen to music with my ears, not any preconceptions or prejudices.

 

[Forostar]

I couldn't care less about the personal motivations of Steve Harris or anybody else (except as a secondary interest in the people behind my favourite music). While it's true that the very best music is usually created by people with an artistic vision of their own, I don't see why a cynically marketed commercial artist is intrinsically worse than somebody pursuing a heartfelt personal vision. The only thing that matters is whether the final product is interesting and/or enjoyable or not.

So it's only what for you when you're listening. Never who (let alone how, where, why or when). Not interested in band members, people in music, concerts, trivia, inspiration, history? Knowing who does what, who wrote which song etc? If I left all that out, my musical world would become very tiny, or at least my view on it.

Neither do I understand why it's so important to write your own material. Being a good singer or musician doesn't necessarily mean you can write.

If two people made the same music (or music which both fitted to my taste), I'd prefer someone who did his own stuff rather than someone who performs someone else's work.

Imagine what might have happened if, say, Jimi Hendrix had teamed up with a good songwriter.

I rather judge things that really happened.

 

[Shadow]

So it's only what for you when you're listening.

When I'm listening, yes.

Never who (let alone how, where, why or when). Not interested in band members, people in music, concerts, trivia? Knowing who does what, who wrote which song etc? If I left all that out, my musical world would become very tiny, or at least my view on it.

As I wrote in my original post: "except as a secondary interest in the people behind my favourite music". I'm interested in all those things, and I've listened to tons of music for historical interest more than anything else, but it doesn't really factor into my evaluation of the music. A good song is a good song, regardless of who/where/when/how/why. Knowing about the historical background may be interesting, but it rarely makes me enjoy something more or less.

I rather judge things that really happened.

It was a rhetorical example, not a judgement.

 

[Eric Wright]

Imagine what might have happened if, say, Jimi Hendrix had teamed up with a good songwriter.

He already had a good songwriter...

 

[Forostar]

As I wrote in my original post: "except as a secondary interest in the people behind my favourite music". I'm interested in all those things, and I've listened to tons of music for historical interest more than anything else, but it doesn't really factor into my evaluation of the music. A good song is a good song, regardless of who/where/when/how/why. Knowing about the historical background may be interesting, but it rarely makes me enjoy something more or less.

Well, you're not interested in it for nothing. I am not sure if you could enjoy music on the same level, if you didn't no anything about it. Search for identity in an artist is not unimportant, is it?

 

[Forostar]

When I'm listening, yes.

Did it ever happen that you were interested in knowing more about a lyric?

After you read an interview with the artist, explaining the meaning an inspiration, you hear the song again. The song grows (OK a song could also grow without knowing the meaning behind the song, but it also could grow with, right?) when you hear it another time. So in a way, interest in the world behind a song can influence someone when listening.

Now isn't that world more interesting if it is the one from the person who plays the music, rather than some faceless producer?

I think that knowing if an artist constructed a certain riff himself, connects better with him (or her) -also while listening- compared to knowing that someone else did the work.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

I think everyone knows where you're coming from Forostar (I personally agree), but clearly, for some, this isn't that important. My partner just listens to music; knows absolutely nothing about some of the artists; and doesn't want to. Just listens. It's not what I do, but in some ways it makes perfect sense. And you can certainly argue that people who consume music in this fashion are certainly not being influenced by non-musical elements. They are very much judging the music as music. It also gets them away from all these other fairly unimportant elements, which ultimately don't have anything to do with the sound itself & their enjoyment of it.

 

[The Anger & The Pain]

No, im just not into the Kevin Shirley albums too much, i like the songs on BNW but not the live sounding/muddy production he is known for.

Getting back to the origins of the thread. Ziggy is spot on, and also correct on the Beyonce comments. I work in an...urban...environment, you should here the stuff that sells BIG, gets pushed on the radio, etc - massive album and ticket sales and expensive production by big names does not mean squat. True, I've heard some catchy singles from pop / rap artists, but that genre is cotton candy.

As for Matter of Life and Death. When I think of Maiden, at least part or most of the album would consist of some balls to the wall, all out aural assault. I'm thinking Caught Somewhere in Time, Futureal, Evil That Men Do, etc....MOLAD is an excellent album. I'll go as far as to put it just behind Brave New World. If it had some of the classic "Maiden recipe" it could have been great. Also, as Ziggy said, the Kevin Shirley production hampers this album. Steve's bass is almost lost in the mix, unless he is on the high notes, although I kinda dig the drum sound. Speaking of Steve, his classic licks and fills are almost totally absent from this album. I love his bass lines and this is a big deal for me. Bruce's vocals are very good, not his best. Most of the previous records were produced in a way where the vocals were easy to understand, in MOLAD, I find myself consulting the lyric book regularly. The lyrics are very good and deep....this record is great, just missing too many key Maiden components. I love that it is different, but to me it doesn't stand on it's own as Maiden's greatest.

 

[Hermod]

..as for 'metal heads' they just don't even exist anymore. Even back in the 90's you would see legit 'metal heads' at concerts, they had the stereotypical unwashed long shoulder length hair, a leather jacket, spots, usually lacking a girlfriend, they NEVER listened to anything other than the likes of Maiden, Slayer, Metallica and the rest. I went to school with kids like this. Today, everyone has generally short hair, looks the same, dresses the same, and has a bunch of different musical genres on their ipod or MP3. There are really no gangs in music anymore.

Have you been to many metal gigs lately? By that I'm mean bands like Amon Amarth, Sylosis, Gojira, Carcass, Malefice etc? If you have you will have seen plenty of "metal heads"!