War starts as world parties

____no5 said:
they didn't learn a thing from Iraq
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Who, Russia?  Russia isn't doing anything similar to what happened in Iraq.  They've (mostly) withdrawn from Georgia.  They're just hanging out in South Ossetia, where they are wanted, unlike the USA.  It's not very much of a parallel at all.
 
yet there is a lesson to learn -don't you think ??

it's called arrogance, and that the powerfull one will be beated by himself finally
if he don't considers the cituation around him, and act with logic and justice
 
The United States didn't "lose" in Iraq.  It's not a win or lose affair.  It's a lose-lose affair.  Everyone lost.  There could be no winners from the moment the die was cast.

Besides, the powerful, the arrogant, the aggressive *do* win.  History tells us this, that fortune favours the brave (Blaze Bayley tells us this too).  Look at men named Churchill, Charlemagne, Bismarck, Washington, Octavian.  Who are we to say that one day Putin mustn't be added to the name of great victors?  His war hasn't yet been fought.  This trifle in Georgia is but a prequel, a prequel I hope stands alone.

Many people who are in power are incapable of handling it.  But those who are capable of balancing the many factors go on to be among history's greatest humans, for better or for worse.  Russia's history is full of victorious autocrats who ruled with an iron fist and won many wars.  Justice and logic had nothing to do with Iosef Stalin's reign, and he was one of the most successful of Russian/Soviet dictators.  Even on his deathbed the underlings who seethed against each other feared to act against Stalin till they were sure he was dead.
 
while you're right, I feel that if US hadn't have made Iraq war, Russia wouldn't have been in this powerfull possition

of course in a war everyone looses, and what US  lost is the sympathy, creditability against other countries,
not to mention the economic fiasco

what I see is US gave Russia the opportunity to rise again -just Russia is too much in rush (but that's another story)

Besides, the powerful, the arrogant, the aggressive *do* win.  History tells us this, that fortune favours the brave (Blaze Bayley tells us this too).  Look at men named Churchill, Charlemagne, Bismarck, Washington, Octavian.  Who are we to say that one day Putin mustn't be added to the name of great victors?  His war hasn't yet been fought.  This trifle in Georgia is but a prequel, a prequel I hope stands alone.
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wise words, let's say that Putin is gambling right now -yeah maybe you're right, everyone of the above did gamble
so how you call what Bush did when he attacked Iraq ??
 
There's a saying somewhere that good strategists can capitulate on luck whereas the great strategists make their own. I think that makes all the difference in the comparison between Bush and Putin. Although Bush is nowhere near a good strategist.
 
Let's make this absolutely clear:

Vladimir Putin would have made this invasion of Georgia even *if* Al Gore was president right now.  The timing was right, so he made the move.  It has nothing to do with the US invading Iraq, nor the US losing stature in the world stage.  What you need to understand about Putin is that he does not care.  He has skillfully crafted a new "cult of personality" around himself, though to a much lesser extent than Stalin did.  You can see this when they commission neutral opinion polls.  Even if Putin fucks up, Ivan Rusinsky still adores him because he has carefully elevated himself from all offices where blame could be attached.  If the war had gone badly, Putin would have used his Prime Ministerial powers to topple President Medvedev for putting Russia into a "perilous political situation internationally".  Then he would have appointed another stooge and had this fellow push in a different area.

The west is only now realizing what a threat Putin is.  He's managed to systematically remove most democratic reforms or impede them in some way, extending central power throughout the Russian colossus through centralization of government.  He's letting the regional crimelords run the regions, so long as they do what they are told to on the federal stage.  Basically, you can bribe *any* Russian official unless he or she is working for the federal government specifically.  And if you go against Putin, he will have you either killed or locked up on comparatively minor charges for the rest of your life, unless you flee to England and buy a footy team.

Basically, Putin wants to return Russia to superpower status.  That's what the overreaction in Georgia was about.  That's why Tupolev bombers have been buzzing US aircraft carriers and impeding on UK/NORAD airspace every few weeks.  And if he can't have superpower, he'll settle for being in the second echelon with China.  But he knows that right now it's a race to see who can show the biggest international balls.  The UK is out, France is out, India and Pakistan are out.  Russia's got a chance to get back that respect that Putin saw when he was in the KGB.  I can guarantee he dreams of himself as the next Peter the Great or VI Lenin, considered (if for only a period of time) Russia's savior.
 
I just saw the Austrian news where Russian president Medvedev said that the US ships bringing humanitarian aid to Georgia are actually bringing weapons.



Excuse me while I go run around hysterically like a headless chicken...especially as tomorrow I will be in the States.

*starts biting her nails*
 
Natalie said:
tomorrow I will be in the States.
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You should stop by Illinois, Colorado and Arizona on one of your breaks :p... if finances permit to visit with your american maiden pals :)
 
I know that Per is in theory right about this. The entire audience "could" consist of people who don't support Putin and Medvedev
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Do members of Italian FIAT appreciation club support capitalism or communism?
 
:blink:
Last time I checked South Ossetia wasn't part of Russia (regardless of how many Russians live there). And while checking that, I also noticed that New York is part of the US (even if they consider themselves somewhat different from the rest of the country). So it doesn't make sense to liken 08/08/08 to 11/09/01, because they're two completely different things. I mean, I can see why he's doing it, but it doesn't wash with me.
 
Submunition dispensers are often used against infrastructure, such as roads, bridges, stations. He might have been unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I admire war reporters for going where no-one would go, and for trying to inform the world about the truth (or atleast they're supposed to), however, every civilian that isn't in a warzone against his will is no longer a civilian. If your base gets attacked while it's visiting time, wifes of soldiers won't become civilian casualties. Nobody forced them to step in.

Therefore, if Netherlands doesn't manage to prove that Russia deliberately aimed at him/his group, he's just one more casualty of collateral damage, which was his choice. Sad but true.
 
I hate that term. However i haven't found a better one.

Collateral damage in terms of rocket attack that kills innocent civilians doesn't equal collateral damage from cluster bomb targeting infrastructure that kills a journalist that went there on his own choice.
 
Wait - if Russia was only moving to defend South Ossetia and the Russian peacekeepers there, why did they feel the need to destroy Georgian infrastructure anyway?
 
It's easier to blow up a road than to damage 50 tanks. It's called pre-emptive strike.
 
I'm just doing some educated guessing. It could be anything. For all you know, it wasn't Federation Ground Forces, but those paramilitary Checnya troops.

In any case, we should wait for the results.
 
Bullshit. Russia could rampage through Eastern Europe, USA would only bark at the moon. They aren't prepared to start WW3 over "something over there" (from their point of view). Same thing if USA would invade Venezuela tommorow. RF would stand still.
 
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