USA Politics

Eh, you have folks like @Detective Beauregard who came in hot trying to blame "leftists" and the entire left without a shred of evidence. Right after the shooting you had major Fox News talking heads calling for civil war and violence against the left, despite the left having nothing to do with this shooting!
"Not me -- him also": That's how schoolboys playing soccer get out of trouble when a window gets broken. The last thing we need in this fucked up world is the USA to completely tear itself apart now. "When they go low, we go high", remember? Now it seems to be: "When they go low, we go even lower."

It's very easy to show that Trump is a terrible president. It's counterproductive to twist words and construct drama out of, generously speaking, half-truths.
 
"Not me -- him also": That's how schoolboys playing soccer get out of trouble when a window gets broken. The last thing we need in this fucked up world is the USA to completely tear itself apart now. "When they go low, we go high", remember? Now it seems to be: "When they go low, we go even lower."

It's very easy to show that Trump is a terrible president. It's counterproductive to twist words and construct drama out of, generously speaking, half-truths.
There are no "half-truths", just because Stephen King misquoted something. Charlie Kirk was a fascist who wanted the violent eradication of trans people. He said MLK was an awful man and that the Civil Rights were a mistake. He was a white supremacist and an anti-semite. Those are all truths, supported by his very own words. I posted sources on earlier pages, including the clips where he says those things. None of this is up for debate, but trying to muddy the waters about something so clearly established paints a veeery bad look. I'd think twice before going down that route.

The shooter wasn't on the left. He seems to be a groyper (if you don't know what that is, look it up). The right is blaming the left and advocating violence against the left, when the left had literally nothing to do with any of this. As I mentioned before: The vast majority of political violence is done by the right wing. Again, factual. I posted a bunch of sources. Stop dragging the left into this, it's whataboutism. The right wing and the surrounding hypocrisy is what's important, not deflecting to irrelevant topics.

Also, "when they go low, we go high" is the stupidest idea and the exact reason why we are here in the first place. The Dems have no spine and are refusing to call out the violent extremism of the right wing. The right literally murders and lynches people, including politicians, but the Dems are the ones who think reaching across the aisle is a valid strategy. It's not.

It is time for the right wing to take responsibility for the vast amount of violence, pain, death and destruction they have been causing for decades at this point.
 
Source? I haven’t seen anything of the kind yet.

I saw the opposite, that the bullets were engraved with Bella Ciao

EDIT: just read the article @Mosh posted and see that Bela Ciao might just be some meme bullshit and not anything to do with left wing beliefs.

I also saw a video of the other shooter at that Catholic school mentioned in the article, where he's showing all the magazines with the geeky slogans he's written on them. Frightening stuff, firstly that poor youngsters can get warped into being such losers, and then how easy it is for them to get the weapons to carry it out, and I'm not just talking about gun control here, do they have no one in their lives that notices this shit and can step in and talk to them?
 
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“You can tell a lot about a person by how they react when someone dies.” - Charlie Kirk, 2016

I don't believe that @Detective Beauregard @el diablo @____no5 or any of the other MAGAs shedding crocodile tears online actually care about any of this.
“Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups.” - Confucius (probably)

This assassination has made me sick. Regardless of how you felt about his beliefs, Charlie was a debater - not a Nazi or Putin or a genocidal warlord. He never harmed anyone, and was rewarded for that with a violent death in front of his family. Then I go onto social media and see people celebrating this, like some evil regime had just been toppled. It’s disgusting.

Interesting, though, how you don’t see conservatives starting riots and burning cities because of this, isn’t it? Very telling of the average mindset of each party’s supporters.

I’ll be honest: I don’t have the time or the patience to sift through pages upon pages of Vaenyr’s unhinged rants. Until I see hard unbiased evidence to the contrary, I will continue to believe that leftist ideologies are responsible for this. If end up being incorrect, I’ll own up to it.
 
“You can tell a lot about a person by how they react when someone dies.” - Charlie Kirk, 2016
"I can't stand the word empathy, actually. I think empathy is a made-up, new age term that — it does a lot of damage." - Charlie Kirk

Regardless of how you felt about his beliefs, Charlie was a debater - not a Nazi or Putin or a genocidal warlord.
Wrong, he was a neo nazi.

He never harmed anyone
He spread hate and incited violence.

and was rewarded for that with a violent death in front of his family.
That obviously sucks for his family. No one denies that.

Then I go onto social media and see people celebrating this, like some evil regime had just been toppled. It’s disgusting.
You mean like how the right wing always celebrates and jokes whenever people on the left are attacked or killed? Like Melissa Hortman?

Interesting, though, how you don’t see conservatives starting riots and burning cities because of this, isn’t it? Very telling of the average mindset of each party’s supporters.
Ah, this is hilarious and such an own goal, because you don't know the basic facts about what you're complaining about lmao

93% of BLM protests were peaceful.
From the remaining 7% that turned violent we know that the violence was started by police in the majority of cases.
We also know for a fact that most riots were started by far right agitators and opportunists, not by left wing activists.

Those are facts, even proven with studies. So not only is your insinuation (once again) objectively wrong by trying to blame the left, it actually serves as another example of right wing extremism. It's goddamn hilarious how you keep falling for every trap possible.

Furthermore: Jan 6. You didn't see Democrats storming the Capitol this year did you? ;)

I’ll be honest: I don’t have the time or the patience to sift through pages upon pages of Vaenyr’s unhinged rants. Until I see hard unbiased evidence to the contrary, I will continue to believe that leftist ideologies are responsible for this. If end up being incorrect, I’ll own up to it.
You already ended up being wrong, so time to own up. You are outright saying that you don't care about facts and will continue to lie through your teeth. It's very telling that you never dispute any of the claims made in our posts, probably because you know that you can't contest the facts. I gave you almost a dozen of sources that showed how the violence almost always originates from the right wing.

We know that you have the time. You constantly lurk the thread and react to various posts. You simply don't respect the members of the forum enough to engage with honesty and integrity. That's your right, I suppose. But don't think for a second anyone's falling for this pathetic framing. No worries though, we'll keep calling you out.
 
"Facts don't care about your feelings" - Ben Shapiro

How about we let Charlie's own words show what kind of a man he was? And how he was perceived internationally?

Charlie Kirk's Documented calls for political violence


Direct Calls for Death and Public Executions:​


Called for President Biden to receive "the death penalty for his crimes against America" (July 2023)

"Death penalties should be public, should be quick, it should be televised. I think at a certain age, its an initiation...What age should you start to see public executions?" - suggested children should watch (2024)

Called for "Nuremberg-style trials for every gender-affirming clinic doctor" invoking Nazi war crimes imagery (April 2024)



Calling for Lethal Force Against Migrants and Minorities:​


Advocated lethal force against migrants: "If you enter, we have lethal force, and we're willing to use it" and "You can start with firing next to them" (March 2024)
Advocated using whips against migrants, asking "Why is that controversial?"

Warned of "enemy occupation of the foreigner hordes" requiring armed response
Directed supporters: "Buy weapons. Buy ammo. If you go into a public place, bring a gun with you"



Violent Anti-LGBTQ+ Statements:​


Said he "would've loved" if fathers "formed a line" to physically confront transgender athletes: "you're going to have to come through us"

Called transgender people "an abomination" and "a throbbing middle finger to God"

Advocated handling LGBTQ+ people "the way we used to take care of things in the 1950s and 60s" (era of criminalization and forced institutionalization)



Extreme Anti-Black and Antisemitic Rhetoric:​


Called George Floyd a "scumbag"

Said Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a "huge mistake"

"If I see a Black pilot, I'm going to be like, 'Boy, I hope he's qualified'"

Called Martin Luther King Jr. "awful" and "not a good person"

Claimed Jewish people control "not just the colleges; it's the nonprofits, it's the movies, it's Hollywood, it's all of it"
"The philosophical foundation of anti-whiteness has been largely financed by Jewish donors in the country"



Great Replacement Theory and White Supremacist Messaging:​


Promoted "Great Replacement" theory: "not a theory, it's a reality" - Democrats seek to "diminish and decrease white demographics in America"

SPLC documents Kirk warning that "native born Americans are being replaced by foreigners" and promising Trump will "liberate" the country from "the enemy occupation of the foreigner hordes"



Celebrating and Normalizing Violence:​


Said gun deaths are "worth it" to preserve Second Amendment rights

Promoted Christian nationalist "Seven Mountain Mandate" ideology calling for theocratic takeover through "spiritual warfare"



Targeting and Harassment Campaigns:​


Created "Professor Watchlists" that resulted in death threats, rape threats, and antisemitic harassment

Arizona State University President documented that Kirk's watchlist generated "antisemitic, anti-LGBTQ+ and misogynistic attacks on ASU faculty"

One professor resigned after "nearly a year of harassment by right-wing, white supremacist media outlets"

Maintained "School Board Watchlists" targeting local education officials



January 6 Capitol Attack Organization:​


Organized "80+ buses full of patriots to D.C. to fight for this president"

Admitted receiving "500 emails a minute calling for a civil war" before January 6

Pleaded the Fifth over 70 times when questioned by House January 6 Committee



Civil Rights Organizations' Classification as Extremist:​


Southern Poverty Law Center added Turning Point USA to official "Hate Map" as "antigovernment extremist group" (2024)

Anti-Defamation League documents Kirk's systematic antisemitic rhetoric

Academic research from Cambridge Core and Brookings Institution documents Kirk's rhetoric following established patterns of stochastic terrorism



Documented Legal Consequences and Criminal Investigations:​


Federal Election Commission fined Kirk's organization $18,000 for campaign finance violations

Multiple universities paid settlements totaling tens of thousands of dollars after Kirk's "Professor Watchlist" resulted in documented death threats

Criminal charges filed in multiple states against TPUSA personnel for violent confrontations, including felony assault charges in Arizona

Yolo County District Attorney investigating coordinated attacks at UC Davis that could result in felony charges carrying up to three years in prison



International Recognition as Extremist:​


Socialist Worker UK described his content as a "cesspit of far right lies, vile racism, transphobia"

CBC Canada documented his "combative style" as making him a "potent political force" in promoting extremist ideologies

Al Jazeera noted Kirk's "provocative style" as deliberately inflammatory political messaging



General Violence Normalization:​


Regularly promoted false claims about 2020 election integrity leading to January 6

Systematic rhetoric describing Democratic governance as illegitimate

Network Contagion Research Institute documents Kirk's systematic provision of mainstream legitimacy to white nationalist figures
 
Still trying to justify it... I'd suggest you carefully read through all the sources in this post you stole from reddit and stop flooding the zone during that time.
No, he isn't justifying the murder of Charlie Kirk. He should not have been murdered and the guy who did it will face justice. But trying to brand him with sainthood just is not right and especially not when multiple right-wing figures and lawmakers have been using this murder to call for imprisoning democrats, ban the Democrat party, imprison lawmakers, wage war, conduct killings and so on - many of these posts were deleted as soon as the perp was found to be a white guy from a conservative MAGA family.
 
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Still trying to justify it... I'd suggest you carefully read through all the sources in this post you stole from reddit and stop flooding the zone during that time.
No one's "justifying" anything. It wasn't from reddit either. As I said time and time again, I'm not celebrating his death and it sucks for his family that they witnessed such a horrific event. For everyone else who was present obviously too; no one should see another human being murdered in front of their eyes. Even though Kirk himself disagreed with this idea, since he wanted children to witness executions, but we'll ignore that for now.

I'm sharing facts. Your refusal of accepting that speaks volumes.

Also, I've been following Charlie and other conservative political commentators since 2019 to keep up with their unhinged lunacy. I'm deeply familiar with the monstrous takes he's said over the years.

Y'all are trying to shame us into feeling bad that a genuinely evil human being died, but can't even condemn a far right, christofascist extremist.
 
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I came across this rant on Twitter and I’d like to hear from U.S. moderates (left or right) whether it’s even possible, or if they sense similar opinions around them. Or is it completely off? I don’t follow this man, nor do I know who he is—someone just reposted his text and I found it interesting. I’m sharing it because it somewhat echoes some of the thoughts I posted after the killing of Iryna Zarutska, mainly about the left being soft on criminals. (Though I admit that could be a wrong impression.)

I didn’t react to Kirk’s death, because his views were very harmful to my part of the world, so there wasn’t really anything for me to say. The only thing I can state clearly is that political violence is unacceptable in a democratic world.

So I’m curious: do middle-of-the-road Americans feel the same way? That doesn’t mean I agree with this Twitter rant. As I said, the only overlap is my feeling about the Democrats’ stance on crime—which also might be factually wrong.

@RobertMSterling

*****

The rant:

"(Warning: long rant)My liberal friends are completely oblivious about how radicalizing the last week has been for tens of millions of normal Americans. Zero clue.

I’m not talking about people who are “online”; I mean regular, everyday Americans. “Normies.” People who scroll through Facebook posts and Instagram reels from the Dutch Bros drive thru line. Political moderates who have water cooler chats about Mahomes touchdowns and Bon Jovi concerts, not Twitter threads or Rachel Maddow monologues.

Millions of them. Tens of millions. They’re logging on, they’re engaging, and they’re furious.
And I’ll be candid: They blame you guys. They blame the left.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be justified, they think you’re the bad guys here. And they are reacting accordingly.

I can already hear some of you racing toward the comments to start screeching in moral indignation, so I’m going to be blunt: Shut up and listen to what I’m telling you. Your movement will lose any semblance of relevance if you don’t develop some small measure of self-awareness, and—absent someone force-feeding you bitter medicine—you guys collectively lack the humility to do this on your own.

Here are the facts:
Fact 1. Tens of millions of Americans started the week seeing a 23-year-old blonde woman—a young woman in whom virtually every parent watching pictured their own daughter—stabbed in the neck by a career criminal. These people then found out the murderer had been released from jail 14 times over.

Fact 2. Two days later, tens of millions of Americans watched a video of Charlie Kirk get murdered speaking to college students. Millions of these people knew who Charlie was; millions of them didn’t. Upon seeing the video, however, these normal Americans from across the land and across the political spectrum agreed that he was the victim of a terrible, fundamentally unjustifiable crime, and their hearts broke in sympathy for his family. Good people who had never even heard the name Charlie Kirk before wept.

Fact 3. Immediately after seeing the footage of a peaceful young man get shot in the neck, these same people logged onto Facebook and Instagram (remember, we are talking about regular Americans, not perpetually online Twitter or Bluesky users) and saw some of their local nurses, school teachers, college administrators, and retail workers celebrating this horrific crime. Not just defending it, but cheering it.

These are all facts. You may not like the implications of these facts, and we can certainly debate the underlying causes thereof, but, indisputably, they are nevertheless factual statements.

Here’s what it means for you, the Democrats reading this:
These normal, middle-of-the-road, non-political citizens just become politically active. They realized that politics cares about them, even if they don’t particularly care about politics. After watching Iryna Zarutska and Charlie Kirk both bleed out from the neck, they think their lives and the physical safety of their families—the bedrock of human society, the foundation of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs—depend on political activation, whether they desire it or not.

These people are now sprinting—not jogging, not walking, but racing—to the right. Because they blame you guys for everything that just happened.

When they see footage of Decarlos Brown stabbing a Ukrainian refugee to death, they don’t see just one demon-possessed man. They picture every university administrator, HR bureaucrat, and DEI apparatchik that ever lectured them about systemic racism, the “carceral state,” or the need to release violent crime suspects without bail in the name of social justice.

They then think back to conversations they’ve had with their cop friends—their buddy from high school who quit the force after getting tired of being called a racist, their friend at the local YMCA who vents about having to release career criminals because Soros-funded prosecutors aren’t willing to file charges—and they realize everything the left has told them over the last five years has been utter bullshit.

And they blame you. Because, even if you count yourself as a moderate Democrat, your party supported the district attorneys, city council members, and mayors that let fictitious concerns about mental health and racial justice supersede very real concerns for their family’s safety.

When these Americans see blood erupt from the side of Charlie Kirk’s neck, they don’t see just a martyred political activist. They think of every extreme leftist they’ve ever met who (1) calls anyone to the right of Hillary Clinton a fascist and (2) constantly jokes—“jokes”—about punching Nazis and “bashing the fash.”

They realize that there really do exist people who wish to see them dead for their moderately conservative political beliefs, their Christian faith, and even the color of their skin. They ask themselves if the violence visited upon Charlie might one day show up on their own doorstep.

And they blame you. Because, even if you’re just a center-of-the-road liberal, you lacked the courage to police your own ranks. You let modern-day Maoist red guards run loose across every facet of society, and what started with social-media struggle sessions has now turned to 30-06 bullet holes.

When these Americans log onto social media and see their neighbors justifying, celebrating, glorifying murder, they realize that some who walk among them are soulless ghouls at best, literally demon-possessed at worst. These people—whether they faithfully attend church every Sunday or only attend with relatives once a year, on Christmas Eve—start talking about things like spiritual warfare. They implicitly understand that no normal human casually celebrates the mortal demise of a peaceful person.

And they blame you. Because, even if you condemned Charlie Kirk’s murder, they probably haven’t seen you condemn those in your own movement who cheered it on. They view you as complicit in allowing heartless fellow travelers to celebrate death, and it repulses them.

For all of these situations, what has your response been? Nothing but bullshit.

In response to Iryna Zarutska bleeding out on the floor of a train, you post bullshit statistics about reductions in reported crime, when everyone who’s ever been to a major urban center in the last decade knows that actual crime has skyrocketed, only for victims not to waste their time reporting it to cops that don’t have the manpower to respond and prosecutors that seek to downgrade as many felonies as possible to misdemeanor citations.

In response to a 31-year-old man taking a bullet to the neck in front of his family, you post nothing but bullshit whataboutism.

> “What about January 6th?” (Honest answer: After you let Liz Cheney spend two years operating a star chamber in the House, combined with countless other failed attempts at “lawfare” against Trump, no one cares anymore.)

> “What about Mike Lee making a dumb joke on Twitter about some guy in a mask in Minnesota?” (No one outside of Utah, DC, or Twitter knows who Mike Lee even is.)

> “What about Paul Pelosi?” (That’s not comparable to Charlie Kirk getting shot, and we all know it. And, again, Paul who?)

> “What about regulations on assault rifles?” (That’s not going to get you very far when one of these killers used a knife and the other one used a common hunting rifle.)

In response to teachers, healthcare workers, and thousands of other liberals cheering on Charlie’s murder, it’s nothing but more bullshit and misdirection.

> “It’s not THAT many people celebrating!” (Yes, it is. Everyone has seen it on their Facebook and Instagram feeds.)

> “I thought you guys didn’t support cancel culture.” (We don’t cancel people over their opinions; we’re more than happy to see people lose their jobs—especially their taxpayer-funded jobs—for actively cheering on murder, though. If you can’t see the difference, that’s your own shortcoming.)

All bullshit. Not even smart bullshit, but stale, mid-grade, low-IQ bullshit. Ordinary Americans see right through it, and they don’t like how it smells.

You probably don’t like hearing this. But you need to hear it.

Because I’m right, and, as you reflect on this, you know I’m right. The ranks of my political movement gained millions of righteously angry new members this week. We have a mandate to ensure these crimes never happen again, and that’s exactly what we are now going to do.

If you want to keep a seat at the table as we do so, you’d better clean house and start policing your own."

@RobertMSterling

*****


I’m not posting this to create chaos on the forum. I’m posting it as a bystander who’s simply interested in what’s happening. I fully understand this could be some form of propaganda—although it was reposted by a stock trader I follow, so I assumed it was just an interaction between two U.S. citizens.

I also understand and agree that the Democrats are not the root of all evil, and that, for example, “crime rates in Republican states may actually be higher.” But if this rant is genuine, it might indicate that some U.S. citizens really do blame “the left for everything”—and that the Democrats could be in real trouble.

And if you’re wondering why I so often “attack the Dems,” it’s because I see them as the sensible ones. There’s no point in arguing with the far right (or far left), extremists, or outright nazis. You try to communicate with the people who are reasonable.

And then I saw this. USA, what the hell is going on? How is it even possible to say things like that on live TV? In my country, they’d definitely get some “attention” for it.
 
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The left is acutely aware of all these things. The left isn't "soft on crime"; that's absolute bullshit and far right propaganda.

According to the ADL and FBI data, over 75–95% of ideologically motivated killings in the U.S. over the last decade have been committed by far-right extremists.

Kirk was a private citizen. Saying "Paul who?" for Paul Pelosi, the husband of a sitting politician (who was attacked because his wife was the actual target bus wasn't present) is a perfect example of someone who is actively pushing propaganda by lionizing Kirk and downplaying the extremism of the far right which is orders of magnitude worse.
And that's before we talk about the assassination of an elected democratic state senator.

Kirk was just a podcaster. Saying the US got radicalized now, when the right has been killing people for decades and is increasingly becoming violent, despite the left not having to do anything with this is just stirring shit up for no reason. It's manufactured consent.

I know, you don't wanna hear from me, but I'll always be here to call out bullshit and wrong framings in this thread.

Sources:










 
Even if most of it isn’t true, the problems for Democrats begin if enough “average voters” start to feel that way. Many people vote based on impressions—on what they sense, or on what they’re being fed. Democrats need a clear strategy to counter the current dominant narratives. And maybe, at times, they’ll need to adjust their stance.

It’s also pretty clear that some media platforms should be banned outright. I think TikTok is very harmful. Look—Trump once wanted to ban it, but now, if I’m not mistaken, he’s actively using it because he knows it benefits him. And through unregulated media, third countries are clearly stirring the pot in the U.S.—China and russia being the obvious examples.
 
Even if most of it isn’t true, the problems for Democrats begin if enough “average voters” start to feel that way. Many people vote based on impressions—on what they sense, or on what they’re being fed. Democrats need a clear strategy to counter the current dominant narratives. And maybe, at times, they’ll need to adjust their stance.
I think you are right on the money here.

And yes, pretty much nothing has been as damaging to democracy and children's development as social media.
 
Even if most of it isn’t true, the problems for Democrats begin if enough “average voters” start to feel that way. Many people vote based on impressions—on what they sense, or on what they’re being fed. Democrats need a clear strategy to counter the current dominant narratives. And maybe, at times, they’ll need to adjust their stance.
100% agreed on this. That's my issue with the Democratic party in particular as well.

It’s also pretty clear that some media platforms should be banned outright. I think TikTok is very harmful. Look—Trump once wanted to ban it, but now, if I’m not mistaken, he’s actively using it because he knows it benefits him. And through unregulated media, third countries are clearly stirring the pot in the U.S.—China and russia being the obvious examples.
Social media desperately need more regulations. It's still the Wild West and they've done untold damage to entire generations. Unfortunately the people who's be responsible to issue legislation to deal with that, are barely familiar with the internet and modern technologies.
 
No, he isn't justifying the murder of Charlie Kirk. He should not have been murdered and the guy who did it will face justice. But trying to brand him with sainthood just is not right and especially not when multiple right-wing figures and lawmakers have been using this murder to call for imprisoning democrats, ban the Democrat party, imprison lawmakers, wage war, conduct killings and so on - many of these posts were deleted as soon as the perp was found to be a white guy from a conservative MAGA family.
I understand that and I agree with you. My issue is with the black-and-white thinking that says everyone on "the left" is perfect and everyone on "the right" is evil, or vice versa. The ability to disagree with what's wrong in your own "team" is essential.
 
I understand that and I agree with you. My issue is with the black-and-white thinking that says everyone on "the left" is perfect and everyone on "the right" is evil, or vice versa. The ability to disagree with what's wrong in your own "team" is essential.
That's not happening in this thread though. I've criticized the left and the Dems plenty of times over the years.

The problem here is that people are blaming the left for something the left has absolutely no connection to. They even admit outright that they are doing so without any evidence whatsoever, just because they feel like it. Even when it should be easy to condemn a far right extremist the conservatives here are refusing to even acknowledge any of the heinous stuff and still blame the left.

The left is far from perfect, but trying to treat both sides as being the same in this matter when the right wing is orders of magnitude worse (I posted plenty of sources), is simply disingenuous. The fact that we're even having this discussion proves the hypocrisy and how the right can get away with absolutely everything (including literal murder and assassinations), while the left has to stand trial, even when it's not their fault.

I'm not talking in hyperbole. I don't like strawman arguments like that. I gave specific numbers that showed the fact, that the right is overwhelmingly responsible for political violence. But somehow no one is interested in talking about that. Once again attacking the left seems much more important.
 
Yeah the rant Azas has found is exactly that. A right wing rant.

The left are unfortunately shit at messaging, whereas the right are exceptionally good at it, and have a very well organised media ecosystem thats able to convince millions of people to believe things that are completely untrue.

We'll no doubt see huge swathes of people believing the shooter was left wing regardless of what the eventual outcome is. I'm seeing lots of posts about him being a groyper, but have yet to see anything definitive from a reliable source. So for now I'm still in the "we don't KNOW what his motivations were" camp.
 
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