USA Politics

Would you say the same thinking applies to Russian elections, or is there a dividing line in there somewhere?

I don’t know about Russian elections so I didn’t bring it up.

…except it’s right there in the Constitution. So if you uphold the constitution of a constitutional democracy you’re supposedly not really democratic…?

I am not sure if January 6th qualifies for rebellion frankly. It was a terrible thing to do yes, as it provides a textbook for future dictators. But that’s about it. This is my opinion of course.

Also if January 6th was without any doubt an uprising his own party would have pushed him out of the presidency.
They didn’t and since everything happened in front of everybody’s eyes let the people decide for themselves, I say.
 
Once again responding “I don’t know about that” when presented evidence that may challenge your claims. Nice.

What evidence anyone provided about Russia? When we even talked about Russian elections? Did you read the thread or just throwing guesses around?

I didn’t mention Russia at all, Jer in his classic fashion brought it up and now you are talking about evidence?
 
Nice article but I don't get how one can call Türkiye or Hungary a dictatorship, illiberal or anything like that. People vote for Erdogan & Orban massively and we should respect what people vote, like it or not.
Same with Trump. If we don't hear what half of US shouts and so loudly too we are in for a huge blind spot, same as Hilary had when she called half of US deplorables. And we all know what happened.
That's why I am totally against removing people's choice with means like lawfare, or legal means if the word offends you or anything like that.

We need to look ourselves in the mirror and ask: Do we really believe in democracy? If yes we must be ready to accept uncomfortable outcomes, such as Erdogan, Orban and yes, Trump.
You keep saying half and we've explained to you before that it's not half the US. It's a third at best.
You also mentioned lawfare once more. It doesn't "offend" anyone; it's literally and objectively incorrect to use in this manner. Please don't start with all that again.

Furthermore: "Defeating fascists/anti-democrats at the voting booth" is a myth and only serves in empowering them. It's the same as with the AFD in Germany where deeply unconstitutional strategies were leaked and now the majority of the country is in favor of banning that party, because the party itself engages in undemocratic behavior.

Also if January 6th was without any doubt an uprising his own party would have pushed him out of the presidency.
What makes you think that? There is nothing that would suggest so. On the contrary, the last few years have shown quite clearly that Trump has a strong grip on the GOP and that they will, almost without fail, stand by him.
 
It's the same as with the AFD in Germany where deeply unconstitutional strategies were leaked and now the majority of the country is in favor of banning that party, because the party itself engages in undemocratic behavior.
What did those idiots do now?
 
What did those idiots do now?

They are always doing something. Right now, information about a conference held last year leaked where, among others, many AFD members attended and listened to a prominent Austrian Nazi Right-Wing populist lay out a plan for deporting anybody who's not German enough for him.
 
Furthermore: "Defeating fascists/anti-democrats at the voting booth" is a myth and only serves in empowering them. It's the same as with the AFD in Germany where deeply unconstitutional strategies were leaked and now the majority of the country is in favor of banning that party, because the party itself engages in undemocratic behavior.

It’s also wrong to ban AFD. What means undemocratic behavior exactly?
So depriving 15 -20% of Germans the choice is democratic?
That was my point all along, we claim to be democratic but we are not ready for uncomfortable outcomes.
 
Democratic is not just about governing. Democratic principles are abouthuman equality, human values and equality in the face of law. It's not only a political system with elections. The great fault of democracy is that it in principle can abolish itself through, initially, a democratic process (but in reality, grounded in attacks on demoracy itself, through propadanda and moles. That is exactly what has been factually determined, that Russia has been doing for a good 15 years) That does not mean the other parties, groups and entities abiding by democratic values should sit idly by. Why should Russia be allowed to poison the well of democracy in Europe unchecked? It was just uncovered by the media that a Russian mole has been working for FSB while being an EU parliamentarian for almost 20 years. If you don't abide by fundamental principles, why should you be eligible? I agree, it certainly isn't unproblematic, but you have to wield self-defence somehow; the weakness in the armor of democracy has multiplied through the perversion on the once-benevolent internet.
 
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I didn’t mention Russia at all, Jer in his classic fashion brought it up and now you are talking about evidence?
Russia ostensibly holds elections that show Putin racking up a huge percentage of the vote. Like most authoritarians in countries that hold elections, he probably had to win at least one election legitimately early on, but then he started putting his thumb on the scale to ensure that he would “win” by large margins in the future through jailing and killing political opposition, election fraud shenanigans, etc. This is pretty well established, but if you really need me to Google it for you and post links, I guess I can.

I asked your views on the Russian elections because they would apparently meet your top-level criteria for claiming that Putin has broad public support and we shouldn’t question the legitimacy of his wins or consider Russia “a dictatorship, illiberal, or anything like that”. Since it’s pretty clear that Russia is actually all of those things now and their elections have become a farce, I wanted to see where you draw the line between Russia and your own examples of Türkiye and Hungary, or if you even see any distinction at all.
 
I am not sure if January 6th qualifies for rebellion frankly.
It only has to qualify for insurrection to trigger the clause, and an insurrection is “a violent uprising against an authority or government”, which Jan 6 clearly was.
 
Democratic is not just about governing. Democratic principles are abouthuman equality, human values and equality in the face of law. It's not only a political system with elections. The great fault of democracy is that it in principle can abolish itself through, initially, a democratic process (but in reality, grounded in attacks on demoracy itself, through propadanda and moles. That is exactly what has been factually determined, that Russia has been doing for a good 15 years) That does not mean the other parties, groups and entities abiding by democratic values should sit idly by. Why should Russia be allowed to poison the well of democracy in Europe unchecked?

Yax, ultimately democracy means we need to respect people's will. If people like Erdogan or AFD we should listen to understand why and maybe try to fix the root cause; not discard them i.e., "deplorables" and definitely not ban them. People should send them home, not judges.
I am not sure why we need to involve Russia in the discussion. The article was about Hungary and Türkiye.
AFD is a good study case. If we start banning political parties (based on what?) we will probably end up as antidemocratic as them.

@Jer I’m genuinely not familiar with Russian elections and I don’t have a clear opinion.
I was triggered from the article that more or less called Erdogan & Orban dictators. That’s a huge distortion of reality and it probably fells into propaganda territory. Erdogan had made his intentions clear that he wanted to change the constitution and in which direction. People still voted for him. This is democracy.
 
AFD is a good study case. If we start banning political parties (based on what?) we will probably end up as antidemocratic as them.

It is immensely difficult to ban a political party in Germany. It happened only twice in the history of the Federal Republic, in 1952 and 1956 respectively. Even NPD, a party that is effectively openly a Nazi party and has never fooled anyone, could never be banned because of the high barriers the constitution sets. A political party can only be banned in Germany if it can be lawfully proven that they are actively working against the constitutional order. And the standards for this are high. But if it is proven, then that means all institutions of the country agree that party is dangerous and undemocratic.
 
Yax, ultimately democracy means we need to respect people's will. If people like Erdogan or AFD we should listen to understand why and maybe try to fix the root cause; not discard them i.e., "deplorables" and definitely not ban them. People should send them home, not judges.
I am not sure why we need to involve Russia in the discussion. The article was about Hungary and Türkiye.
AFD is a good study case. If we start banning political parties (based on what?) we will probably end up as antidemocratic as them.
Russia's attack on European democracy isn't something you can isolate from the discourse. Far from it. Alt-right parties are de-facto tied to those endeavours. You are talking about the classic dilemma of democratic self-defence, but the number one threat to democracy stems from Russia running operations to undermine it. You cannot steer the discourse away from it. The dilemma of democratic self-defence is a substantial dilemma, that has been researched and discussed for a long time. I disagree that it's fundamentally as simple as you put forth, although I do agree that banning of parties that want to turn to fascism and tear down democracy, and movements should not be done lightly, if at all. That's why it's a substantial dilemma; it's not easily resolved and there is no easy answer, if at all.

And what is the will of the people? In fact, many majorities generally explicitly reject the neo-fascist parties, and there is widespead popular support for banning AfD, although I have no idea if it's explicitly in the majority or not (it probably isn't). Should majorities in parliament be forced to negotiate with parliament minorities (a popular narrative driven by alt-right movements. "it's undemocratic that the establishment ignores us"? How is that "the will of the people", to force the majority parties to bend to the will of the minority parties? The "will of the people" isn't a singular, homogeneous position, although quite extensively do authoritarians claim to universally represent it.

It is fundamentally democratic to preserve democracy and to defend democratic, humane values. Same as wars are always horrible act in inhumanity, the strife in a war can be just. All wars are fundamentally undemocratic, yet wars have been waged in part or in whole to preserve it (WWII for instance). Is it democratic to allow propaganda from the enemies of democracy to poison and undermine democracy? Also, if we look at how party culture work, it's not really built from the bottom up. Contrary, Trump has reimaged the GOP from the top down. Is it democratic how him, his cronies and alt-right media deceive and radicalize? Is toxic manipulation democratic, where the few can use their power to oppress the rest? The power to change the way people think and perceive, is by many philosophers defined as the ultimate use of power. Is it democratic for a few undemocratic people running their movement, go turn it into a fist? How is that "the will of the people"? It's the will of a few people that use the rest of the people and pit them against eachother.
 
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It’s also wrong to ban AFD. What means undemocratic behavior exactly?
So depriving 15 -20% of Germans the choice is democratic?
That was my point all along, we claim to be democratic but we are not ready for uncomfortable outcomes.
Stop playing innocent, it's not cute and your behavior is incredibly transparent by now.
This isn't nuanced and there is no wiggle room. What was discussed in the AFD meeting is per definition undemocratic and unconstitutional. If you haven't informed yourself enough on the matter do so before sharing your opinion. What is happening isn't an arbitrary banning of a political party. It's an effort to ban extremists who have stated quite clearly undemocratic and unconstitutional behavior.

Please, for the love of God, read up on the paradox of tolerance because you clearly misunderstand basic democratic principles. Fuck fascists and Neonazis and fuck the AFD. If they want to remain a political party they have to work within the political framework; not engage in unconstitutional behavior. Stop with you "just asking questions" spiel and read up on what they said and what they have planned. Only once you've done that do I want to hear your arguments why enemies of democracy should be tolerated.

Edit: To use your argument against you: If the "will of the people" is overwhelmingly to ban a fascistic party, wouldn't it be democratic to do so? See how silly that point is?
 
What evidence anyone provided about Russia? When we even talked about Russian elections? Did you read the thread or just throwing guesses around?

I didn’t mention Russia at all, Jer in his classic fashion brought it up and now you are talking about evidence?
That's the part of the problem. You don't have issues - at least, You don't show it - with real bad regimes like those in ruzzia, China, Syria, North Korea, Iran etc. But you continuously aim at democratic countries. Like in that saying:
"Why do you look at the [insignificant] speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice and acknowledge the [egregious] log that is in your own eye?"
Vector of your thought speaks volumes about your information channels. At least to me.
So, what are your opinion about concentration camps of Uyghurs in China? Or You will remain silent and will ignore this question yet again?
 
And that's how it should be. Good for Germany.

Yes, but do mind what I said in the end: But if it is proven, then that means all institutions of the country agree that party is dangerous and undemocratic.
 
^ Not only doesn't 5 have no issues with China, remember all the pearl clutching when Biden justifiably called Xi a dictator? It's all performative. Instead of taking offense to an actual dictatorship it's apparently so much worse to call a dictator a dictator.
 
Yes, but do mind what I said in the end: But if it is proven, then that means all institutions of the country agree that party is dangerous and undemocratic.

Yes I saw that, it's fair game. I liked how you put it, it showed clearly that Germany takes very seriously those things, which is all one can ask.

^ Not only doesn't 5 have no issues with China, remember all the pearl clutching when Biden justifiably called Xi a dictator?

The point I was trying to make is that it was unwise /foolish of a world leader to say something like that immediately after a meeting that his side tried to set up for months. The statement being true or not was not the point. Poor diplomacy was the point.
 
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