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Yax said:
The takeaway here isn't that he doesn't like paying taxes. It's how indebted he is.

Edit: @bearfan do debates really matter that much though? It's mostly a show anyway. Do they really move the "undecided voters?" or is that done by other factors?
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I think they generally do not matter unless one candidate does/says something incredibly stupid that is new .. which may or may not matter. Which is a distinct possibility with these two. If the debates are generally uneventful, that really plays to Biden

The First George Bush looking at is watch for example, Jimmy Carter talking about a conversation with his daughter being key to his nuclear strategy, Al Gore and his general tone are things that pop to my mind ... or one candidate hits another one hard and effective .. Reagan joking about Mondale's youth and inexperience is seen as the point that ended any shot Mondale had (which was slim for sure)
 
LooseCannon said:
I guess because they believe he might sign laws that move things in the direction they want, whereas they know Donald Trump won't.

Progress is often forced on presidents who had to moderate in order to win elections. See Obama's evolution on gay marriage, for example.
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Maybe ... but the track record on this is pretty poor to say the least.
 
The debates usually don’t really matter imo. Hillary won all three debates and still lost. Romney won his first debate (which is always the one that matters the most) and lost. I think the debates only matter this year if Biden really falls on his face or slurs his words. It’s Trump’s last shot at defining Biden and making a convincing case for why voters should give him 4 more years. The biggest problem for Trump right now that didn’t exist in 2016 is that there are virtually no undecideds. Biden is clearing 50% in most state polls. Trump needs a bigger miracle to win this year.
 
bearfan said:
Really what is the option then .. Biden is not really any of those things nor is the part he is running for?
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Biden’s more of a free trader than Trump, for sure. And while Biden isn’t unblemished on ethical issues, he’s obviously miles better on ethics than Trump. No comparison on lying and raving anti-intellectualism. Biden’s not a faker on religion. If you believe in supporting non-partisan governmental institutions rather than trying to tear them down and politicize them, then Biden is preferable. If you think politicians should try to govern all of their constituents and not just their most ardent supporters, then Biden is preferable. These are all ideas that Republicans used to support before the Trump cult took over (or in some cases before the rise of the Tea Party), but it seems like tax policy and court packing trump everything else (no pun intended).

After supporting Trump, Republicans have forfeited the right to ever claim the high ground again on moral principles, national security, or fiscal responsibility. The facade has been torn down.
 
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Mosh said:
The debates usually don’t really matter imo. Hillary won all three debates and still lost. Romney won his first debate (which is always the one that matters the most) and lost. I think the debates only matter this year if Biden really falls on his face or slurs his words. It’s Trump’s last shot at defining Biden and making a convincing case for why voters should give him 4 more years. The biggest problem for Trump right now that didn’t exist in 2016 is that there are virtually no undecideds. Biden is clearing 50% in most state polls. Trump needs a bigger miracle to win this year.
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There is a difference between "winning" them in terms of debate points and changing the election. I agree with you that just winning a debate will not do Trump much good, Biden needs to fall on his face for Trump to really win any of the debates in a way that will change the course of the election. The three debates (the VP one is pretty meaningless) are Trump's only real shot at winning the election at this point. I do not think anything else really matters short of some massive event or news happens that will swing it one way or another.
 
Jer said:
Biden’s more of a free trader than Trump, for sure. And while Biden isn’t unblemished on ethical issues, he’s obviously miles better on ethics than Trump. No comparison on lying and raving anti-intellectualism. Biden’s not a faker on religion. If you believe in supporting non-partisan governmental institutions rather than trying to tear them down and politicize them, then Biden is preferable. If you think politicians should try to govern all of their constituents and not just their most ardent supporters, then Biden is preferable. These are all ideas that Republicans used to support before the Trump cult took over (or in some cases before the rise of the Tea Party), but it seems like tax policy and court packing trump everything else (no pun intended).

After supporting Trump, Republicans have forfeited the right to ever claim the high ground again on moral principles, national security, or fiscal responsibility. The facade has been torn down.
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I really do not disagree with much of that ... beyond projecting into the future, parties can and have turned on a dime based plenty of times. Though a bit more of a free trader does not offset policies that concentrate more power into the Feds in general and the executive in particular. Which really should be the takeaway from Trump (and the last several Presidents) that the executive has too much power ... and Biden (along with Trump) are arguing for even more
 
538 gives Biden a 78% chance of winning, the model also takes time into account (it handicaps with the assumption of the race tightening over time). It’s also looking like Biden has a good chance of winning Nebraska’s second district, which will give him the 270th vote in the case of a 269-269 situation, so that already low-possibility scenario looks to be out. I’m guessing that after a couple good debates, Biden is going to be in the 80s, which is the opposite trajectory from what Clinton did in 2016. Trump’s debate performance will be more critical than usual this year, especially in the first two.

The polls coming out the past couple days are really bad for Trump. Even PA is looking increasingly less competitive. It could end up being a short election night after all.

Edit: also note that the 538 model probably gives Trump the most benefit of all the models.
 
Biden was respectable and so much more eloquent than Trump, who just spewed verbal diarrhea and bullied his opponent and the moderator. Seriously what the fuck was going on tonight? It was like watching a bulldog attack a beagle. Not cool, but honestly I don’t know what I was expecting.
 
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The president of the United States tells a white supremacy hooligan group to "Stand by". Wow.

Some would argue Biden telling Trump to shut up is not respectful towards a President. I'd say Trump's own behaviour is the greatest disrespect to the office of POTUS.
 
Well now the question is whether there will be any more debates. Both campaigns are probably going to be pressured to call the whole thing off, especially Biden. imo Biden should continue to show up to the debates but address the people directly rather than try to engage with Trump. The few times he did that were standout moments.

That was remarkably bad, worse than any 2016 debate and the worst Trump performance since he ran the first time.
 
Yeah, that performance didn’t win Trump any votes — it was exhausting to watch, and he acted more like a spoiled child than ever.

Biden didn’t fall on his face, and he had 2 or 3 strong references to dumb shit Trump has said (injecting bleach, dead soldiers being “losers” and “suckers”, etc.). And honestly, the “shut up, man” comment was exactly what most people were thinking by that point while watching the debate.

This kind of crap might depress turnout for some borderline voters, but I could also see it push more undecideds away from Trump.
 
I wish during these debates, they would turn the mic off for whoever is not speaking. Or better yet, have each person in a soundproof room and again, only the mic on of whoever is speaking and the mic auto shuts off after their 2 minutes is up.
 
Yax said:
Only Trumptards would make that argument. And by Trumptards, I mean Trump zealots, not just a Trump voter.
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Oh please. If Trump told Biden to shut up, all of Biden's supporters would be all over for him. It doesn't matter though since Trump already made enough of an idiot of himself. Even my parents who are strong supporters of Trump thought he was horrible and that Biden definitely came out looking much stronger.
 
Travis The Dragon said:
Oh please. If Trump told Biden to shut up, all of Biden's supporters would be all over for him. It doesn't matter though since Trump already made enough of an idiot of himself. Even my parents who are strong supporters of Trump thought he was horrible and that Biden definitely came out looking much stronger.
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But that's the thing. Trump is a bully. He consistenly and utterly bullies and dominates. Telling Biden to shut up would've been a typical Trump move, like when he silences reporters or pretty much anybody he disagrees with. We are so used to see Trump bully, ridicule and humiliate. Biden gives him a small taste of his own medicine, after Trump is utterly ignoring all of the rules of the game, just as usual. That's the difference. And I don't think Biden's supporters would have been all over about it - They wouldn't have been surprised. They would have expected it, just like we expect Trump to piss on the office of the presidency at all times. I literally think any, just any, republican than Trump would be more suited for office. Ted Cruz? Any day. Any day. W Bush? Sure thing. And that's saying something.

What's crazy though is how Trump once again calls for violence, voter intimidation and as usual panders to the right wing extremists. Trump is the greatest threat to democracy in the history of the US. The American democracy is being torn down, from within. All of the American enemies, current and past, must surely be rolling over with joy and laughter. Western democracy loses. Russia and China wins. And they don't even have to go to war with the US to win and rid themselves of US dominance, as the President wages the war himself.
 
Travis The Dragon said:
Presidents never follow the rules at those debates. Trump is definitely the worst I've ever seen though.
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Trump doesn't play by any rules. Any. I can understand people approving of his policies. I would consider them wrong. But none of that matters. What does is how he is literally tearing the country apart and undermining, no, destroying the people of america's faith in democracy. That alone makes him utterly unfit to hold office.
 
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Travis The Dragon said:
And not surprisingly, the mail in ballots are becoming a bit of a problem.
www.nytimes.com

Nearly 100,000 Defective Absentee Ballots Sent to N.Y.C. Voters (Published 2020)

A printing error has left voters scrambling for answers and could undermine their confidence in the New York City Board of Elections.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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And they will be sent new ones. This will be fixed. This is a mistake, just like when people don't fill out their voting ballots correctly. It is no evidence of "fraud".

You know what would be much, much bigger issue? People not being able to vote. There's a pandemic. Millions of them. The reason Trump is so against this, is because he doesn't have the support of a majority of Americans. Not even close. So he's trying to rig the game to his advantage by supressing the votes that don't fit his demographic. Trump would like nothing more than millions of people not getting to vote, or to have their votes disqualified, as long as they are votes for Biden.
 
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