USA Politics

To me, it feels stupid referring to your "ideology" unless you have some monolithic set of values/beliefs that can be summed-up in one or two words. Which is, obviously, absurd. Describing yourself in purely ideological terms seems to me a pretty easy way of pigeonholing yourself into a corner & leaving yourself wide open to people making dumb generalisations about what you think, about literally everyone and everything. That doesn't strike me as a particularly useful way of exploring other people's views; assuming they have decent well-formed views worth exploring to begin with. So I, too, share Perun's view of the negative connotations associated with the word; altho' perhaps for different reasons.
 
To me, it feels stupid referring to your "ideology" unless you have some monolithic set of values/beliefs that can be summed-up in one or two words. Which is, obviously, absurd. Describing yourself in purely ideological terms seems to me a pretty easy way of pigeonholing yourself into a corner & leaving yourself wide open to people making dumb generalisations about what you think, about literally everyone and everything. That doesn't strike me as a particularly useful way of exploring other people's views; assuming they have decent well-formed views worth exploring to begin with. So I, too, share Perun's view of the negative connotations associated with the word; altho' perhaps for different reasons.

you've essentially described political discourse in the USA today
 
when matters of policy and debate become a part of our very being/identity, it becomes more difficult to divorce separate oneself from the question and respond with thoughts that don't jibe with their identity. Seems that it can become a zero-sum game (with much rancor and spite and little nuance and bridging)
 
That's what I mean. It seems to be one of those political terms that takes on a completely different meaning in the US than in Europe. Here, the term describes a closed system of political, social and sometimes religious beliefs that is uncompromising and intolerant of other ideas. If somebody uses the term in a modern political context, it is always as a derogatory term against a political opponent, to indicate they are bigoted and irrational. Fascism and Communism are ideologies, and if you are saying a politician is following an ideology or doing things for ideological reasons, you basically mean they are promoting totalitarian mindset.

The word "ideocracy" is commonly used to refer to the concept that you're referring to. Not ideology. Ideology is a neutral descriptive term of political science.

To me, it feels stupid referring to your "ideology" unless you have some monolithic set of values/beliefs that can be summed-up in one or two words. Which is, obviously, absurd. Describing yourself in purely ideological terms seems to me a pretty easy way of pigeonholing yourself into a corner & leaving yourself wide open to people making dumb generalisations about what you think, about literally everyone and everything. That doesn't strike me as a particularly useful way of exploring other people's views; assuming they have decent well-formed views worth exploring to begin with. So I, too, share Perun's view of the negative connotations associated with the word; altho' perhaps for different reasons.

It's a discussion of semantics and that's not what the term "ideology" means. You might criticize people adhering established views and attitudes of an ideology and applying it everywhere without consideration for each individual issue, I would too, but that's not what "ideology" is. You can simultaneously uphold views from different established ideologies. Perhaps in the future your own amalgamation of views and attitudes will come to enter literature as a particular ideology as well, sometimes it even gets named after your own name.

Usually ideologies are shaped by their views and attitudes towards the more macro things in politics, the micro things tend to be variables that ideologies don't get named after, unless the micro things turn into macro things for whatever reason. I think they are very similar to music genres in the purpose they serve, they are descriptive terms and facilitate discussion and make it easier to find common grounds. This is also the reason why political parties are usually associated with one or two main ideologies, that's the average platform - similar to how a band is associated with a genre or two even if they have variance/eclecticism in their music.
 
Last edited:
The word "ideocracy" is commonly used to refer to the concept that you're referring to. Not ideology. Ideology is a neutral descriptive term of political science.

Again. I'm talking about the word as it is commonly used in Germany. I shouldn't have said "Europe" without triple-checking. There is no German equivalent of "idiocracy".

I'm tired of this discussion. You guys clearly don't get what I mean and I don't know how else to explain it.
 
I get what you mean, but it's a weird distortion of the word so you are bound to get a response like this. It's almost guaranteed to lead to communication breakdowns.
 
I get what you mean, but it's a weird distortion of the word so you are bound to get a response like this. It's almost guaranteed to lead to communication breakdowns.

That is literally my point. I am talking about how words have different meanings in different cultures. It is exactly what I said.
 
That is literally my point. I am talking about how words have different meanings in different cultures. It is exactly what I said.

No need to get defensive about it, I'm not arguing against what you brought to the table. I just pointed out that there is a word in English that describes what you were referring to.
 
Well, maybe it's a difference in English and German, then. To me, ideology is strictly an totalitarian concept and a word with highly negative connotation.

Possibly "dogma" has the same meaning as ideology but also a negative connotation.
 
Describing yourself in purely ideological terms seems to me a pretty easy way of pigeonholing yourself into a corner & leaving yourself wide open to people making dumb generalisations about what you think, about literally everyone and everything.

I think there's a lot of people doing exactly that these days, in an almost cartoonish, parody sprt of way. Like if you meet someone for the first time and they mention they have a particular position on one political issue, you've a fairly good chance at guessing what their position is likely to be on most other issues just from knowing that one viewpoint.
 
No need to get defensive about it, I'm not arguing against what you brought to the table. I just pointed out that there is a word in English that describes what you were referring to.
He's literally telling you what it means to him as a German, and you're dictionary quoting him. Words can have different meanings.
 
That's what I mean. It seems to be one of those political terms that takes on a completely different meaning in the US than in Europe. Here, the term describes a closed system of political, social and sometimes religious beliefs that is uncompromising and intolerant of other ideas. If somebody uses the term in a modern political context, it is always as a derogatory term against a political opponent, to indicate they are bigoted and irrational. Fascism and Communism are ideologies, and if you are saying a politician is following an ideology or doing things for ideological reasons, you basically mean they are promoting totalitarian mindset.
That's fair, sure with that definition of the term I agree with you.

Semantics aside, I've been mulling over this idea for the past day and, at least in the US, you can divide politicians into a few main categories (with some crossover in each). First, those who are ideologues who are there to promote some sort of world view. E.g. Rand Paul, Bernie Sanders, AOC, the new senator from Kansas Josh Hawley). Second, those who are in it for money, power, or to promote the political welfare of their party, i.e. partisans. These include Mitch McConnell, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Susan Collins. These are the folks who you hear about often in the news and are extremely influential within the party, but you'll find they often talk less about policy and more about politics. Finally, those who are primarily concerned about representing their constituencies. These folks often come from swing states, states that are opposite of their party, or have enough political clout that they can avoid national pressure in favor of local interests. This includes Lisa Murkowski, Mitt Romney, Jared Polis, Amy Klobuchar. Don't confuse these folks for populists.

Ideally, everybody would fall into that third category. Politicians, after all, should exist to lobby for the interests of the people they represent and who vote them into office. With the current political system, however, all three are necessary and you have no chance of getting what you want passed without each. To Perun's point, I can see how his understanding of ideology as a neutral term could be a bad thing. It creates divide and promotes this two party system where the welfare of the country is secondary to "winning."

To the original question. The coronavirus hasn't changed my own opinion on various issues, but it has led me to some conclusions:

  1. I always thought that once we start seeing real consequences of climate change, climate skeptics would start coming around and see the urgency of the issue. Unfortunately, the reaction to COVID has made me realize that most of these people will continue to deny it even as Kansas becomes a coastal state.
  2. Teflon Don is a myth. Those who aren't engaged in politics could easily ignore Trump's incompetence when it didn't impact them directly. So he has some foreign policy blunders that affects countries most Americans can't point to on a map. Big deal, American life is more or less the same. But a massive screwup on a pandemic that destroys the economy and leads to a slew of preventable cases and deaths, that actually kinda matters and the chances of him turning the ship around and winning in November decrease everyday.
 
Obama has returned to the national stage at John Lewis's funeral.

1) Called for the passing of the new Voting Rights Act.
2) Called for statehood for DC and Puerto Rico.
3) Said to get rid of the filibuster.

It sounds like he's going to be one of the attack dogs for Biden in the next 3 months, and that's real good for Biden, and real bad for Donald Trump.
 
He can't be his VP if he can't be President. Which he can't. I'm hoping for Kamala, and then Kamala taking over in 2025.
 
Back
Top