Travis The Dragon
AFTERGLOW!!!
Oh, I know about WA and CO, but I was unaware of the other 3 until now.
USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
- Start date
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Yeah it did .. others passed medical marijuana. Hopefully not that over 50% of the states have something on the books (medical or recreational), the rest of the country will tip and the Feds will ignore it/repeal federal laws .. I imagine that will happen in the next decade or so
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
While you make a very good point, Conrnfed, I can't say I agree entirely. mckindog tapped into what I feel. I feel I went to bed in America and woke up in Nazi Germany. The fact that a tad over 50% of the U.S is comfortable electing a flat out sexist, racist, bully is alarming. Friends have told me, "oh don't worry, there's still the checks and balances of the separation of powers." Really? Reps still control congress and they'll get their wish of a conservative judge to round out the supreme court. So it's NOT just the next four years.
I've been wanting to move back to Mexico for a number of years. My parents aren't getting any younger, I miss my brother and I don't know y cousins' children. This gives me a great reason to go back and spend a good decade reconnecting.
I've been wanting to move back to Mexico for a number of years. My parents aren't getting any younger, I miss my brother and I don't know y cousins' children. This gives me a great reason to go back and spend a good decade reconnecting.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I didn't just like your situation, @Onhell, but I like your post because you explain well how this feels for you (and many others). It is a perspective that I've often missed here. I hope things work out for the best, whatever (forced) choice you need to make.
Travis usually sees wrong websites (a lot more than just quotes; I think there's a big difference) and then forms opinions.
EDIT:
It's highly likely (they're still counting) that Clinton is winning the popular vote! Because of this undemocratic system Trump won. Trump tweeted four years ago: "The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy." Man, this makes it even more unjust.
Yeah, the same, totally. I have formed my opinion long ago and posted a wrong (but very funny) quote. I admit that I thought it could be wrong, but for once, I didn't give a shit to check it out. The election was over. The anger is still there. Not very unusual behaviour, I assure you. I'm not a robot.
Travis usually sees wrong websites (a lot more than just quotes; I think there's a big difference) and then forms opinions.
EDIT:
It's highly likely (they're still counting) that Clinton is winning the popular vote! Because of this undemocratic system Trump won. Trump tweeted four years ago: "The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy." Man, this makes it even more unjust.
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I'd just like to remind you that Trump is highly controversial within GOP, and I think that many believe he goes against the grain of what they believe in. By no means does he stand for conservative values, unless you think that buying property with a loan from his rich dad somehow makes him a 'self-made man'. He probably has as many actual enemies among the Reps as he does among the Dems.
I think a lot of people in Europe don't actually understand why many Americans hate the establishment so much. I think we need to realise here that there are a lot of people in the US who lead absolutely miserable lives and who are absolutely down in the dumps.
Many people in America were once promised the middle class suburban lifestyle that is so emblematic of America, but were deprived of it for one of several reasons: Usually, their towns got their entire industry and service sectors outsourced to cheaper countries like India. Many Europeans don't know that if an American dials a service hotline, he gets connected to someone calling himself "Shawn from Denver" but is actually someone in a call centre in Bangalore. Hardly anything is "Made in USA" anymore, because greedy companies have their industries set up in Cambodia or Bangladesh, where people commit suicide because of the terrible working conditions.
In many parts of the US, there is no thriving city life anymore, because a WalMart superstore has been placed out of town, driving everything within the town out of business. People took up credits and loans when they started their professional lives to have a car and a house to have a nice family life (in addition to the huge student loans they still had to repay). A lot of people lost their jobs because of the decline of local industry and service, and often find themselves in debt with some foreign company they never heard of because their credits were sold, and they can't repay. They lose their houses and everything they hoped to live for. And what's worst: This has been going on for almost a decade now. It was revealed during the financial crisis in 2007/08, but nothing was changed.
The people only learned that Washington was willing to spend billions of tax dollars to bail out banks, but not to give a single cent to help the American people. Instead, they have to suffer through a bloated bureaucracy that does nothing for them, costs them a lot of money and just gets added to by things like Obamacare. That's why a label such as "Wall Street friendly" that Clinton possesses is so toxic. There is a massive amount of hatred projected on to Wall Street by the people going through all this. And what adds insult to injury is that a lot of these people see a discussion about social justice, that most visibly focuses on legalising gay marriage, whether or not to fly a Confederate flag, or how to address black people, but does nothing to relieve their own misery.
Clinton stands for all this, and many people actually and honestly think they would be off worse under her. They believe that anything is better than Clinton, and they see a lot of their problems addressed - albeit superficially and cheaply - by Trump, whereas they never saw Clinton doing so. So in that sense, voting for Trump is not a "fuck you" to the establishment, but the actual, genuine belief that he would make things better. From an outside perspective, this may seem ridiculous. But I think that if we're actually going to judge the people who voted for Trump, we owe them at least an effort to understand them.
Many people in America were once promised the middle class suburban lifestyle that is so emblematic of America, but were deprived of it for one of several reasons: Usually, their towns got their entire industry and service sectors outsourced to cheaper countries like India. Many Europeans don't know that if an American dials a service hotline, he gets connected to someone calling himself "Shawn from Denver" but is actually someone in a call centre in Bangalore. Hardly anything is "Made in USA" anymore, because greedy companies have their industries set up in Cambodia or Bangladesh, where people commit suicide because of the terrible working conditions.
In many parts of the US, there is no thriving city life anymore, because a WalMart superstore has been placed out of town, driving everything within the town out of business. People took up credits and loans when they started their professional lives to have a car and a house to have a nice family life (in addition to the huge student loans they still had to repay). A lot of people lost their jobs because of the decline of local industry and service, and often find themselves in debt with some foreign company they never heard of because their credits were sold, and they can't repay. They lose their houses and everything they hoped to live for. And what's worst: This has been going on for almost a decade now. It was revealed during the financial crisis in 2007/08, but nothing was changed.
The people only learned that Washington was willing to spend billions of tax dollars to bail out banks, but not to give a single cent to help the American people. Instead, they have to suffer through a bloated bureaucracy that does nothing for them, costs them a lot of money and just gets added to by things like Obamacare. That's why a label such as "Wall Street friendly" that Clinton possesses is so toxic. There is a massive amount of hatred projected on to Wall Street by the people going through all this. And what adds insult to injury is that a lot of these people see a discussion about social justice, that most visibly focuses on legalising gay marriage, whether or not to fly a Confederate flag, or how to address black people, but does nothing to relieve their own misery.
Clinton stands for all this, and many people actually and honestly think they would be off worse under her. They believe that anything is better than Clinton, and they see a lot of their problems addressed - albeit superficially and cheaply - by Trump, whereas they never saw Clinton doing so. So in that sense, voting for Trump is not a "fuck you" to the establishment, but the actual, genuine belief that he would make things better. From an outside perspective, this may seem ridiculous. But I think that if we're actually going to judge the people who voted for Trump, we owe them at least an effort to understand them.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I thought that was widely known as the reason working class and middle class white Americans preferred Trump. Apparently not.
It is a fuck you to the establishment though. Fuck you because they are making life difficult for them, don't think there's anything contradictory between the two things.
It is a fuck you to the establishment though. Fuck you because they are making life difficult for them, don't think there's anything contradictory between the two things.
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An awful lot of the realities of American life you just described, Perun, are the same deal entire areas of Britain have too, the only difference being there's a welfare system (although it's getting more difficult to claim and social housing is in very short supply) and state healthcare. There's a similar anti establishment trend here, and while part of it is about hoping change can make things better, there's serious resentment that isnt only aimed at the excesses of bureaucrats. It's a simmering hatred of anyone who is seen as having it better than the majority. That includes foreigners, the educated and anyone from a slightly different social background.
Instead of attempting to answer those problems, some figures and organisations are egging on that anger for their own commercial or personal gain. That's what bothers me about Trump.
Instead of attempting to answer those problems, some figures and organisations are egging on that anger for their own commercial or personal gain. That's what bothers me about Trump.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Dealing with the crippling middle class and the problems of the suburban working class should've been central to the Democratic campaign. The problem is, that was never going to happen with Hillary Clinton, a staunch Wall Street ally. Bernie Sanders was a chance from that regard. He was both anti-establishment and directly made the economic issues the center of his campaign.
I really think Democrats shot themselves in the foot by making Hillary their candidate.
I really think Democrats shot themselves in the foot by making Hillary their candidate.
That's the key. They chose a candidate who was nearly universally hated and now they're wondering why they lost.
Here's how I've been explaining it: say you live in Steeltown, Pennsylvania. You made steel. Your two brothers made steel. Your wife's brothers made steel. And so did your father and uncles. And grandfathers and great-uncles. The only thing you can remember about your great-grandfather is how proud he was that he poured the steel that ended up in the USS Monitor. Your father used to talk about the time he poured steel that ended up in the World Trade Center. Steel wasn't just a job. It was your way of life.
And twenty years ago your steel plant started laying people off as jobs were sent to China. Oh, you still work in steel, but you haven't gotten a raise in a long while, your benefits are cut, your brother is now working as a carpenter (which, while a job, doesn't pay as much and certainly isn't steel), and your brother-in-law is out of a job altogether. The town isn't shiny anymore, it is falling apart. Infrastructure - the same infrastructure that used to ship your beloved steel to places as far apart as the skyscrapers of LA and the shipyards of Virginia - is crumbling. And when the steel mill does hire, they hire transient labour that works cheaper than you can. You haven't lost your job - but your way of life has been destroyed. These are the people who voted for Trump, because he promised them their father's glory days. He's promised that man will get a chance to pour steel that will go into the next great American project, be that the Mexican Wall or the USS Trump. He's promised to end the leech of Chinese labour and to remove the transients.
It's a lie of a promise. There's no going back to the way things were before.
But imagine how it must tempt.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
There are a lack of jobs in the US that can lead to being middle class without a college degree .. aka the trades. Lots of reasons for this, going off shore, automation, etc.
Some of those are not coming back, some could come back, but Hillary never really addressed this as a central part of her campaign and it is difficult for any Democrat to do any more due to conflicting interest groups. Coal country would be a good example of this .. but really anywhere in the energy sector where they have to try to balance the green wing versus the blue collar workers in the energy sectors.
The other thing from this election, the Obama coalition might not transfer to other Democrats ... and unless they can figure out a way to win back the "rust belt" states, they are in trouble ... and they will have their own issues in the next primary, do they go really hard left (Warren, etc) or centrist (Booker, etc). They also had more minor losses at the lower levels of government (state houses) and that really has to be a concern as that is the bench for Congressional seats.
Some of those are not coming back, some could come back, but Hillary never really addressed this as a central part of her campaign and it is difficult for any Democrat to do any more due to conflicting interest groups. Coal country would be a good example of this .. but really anywhere in the energy sector where they have to try to balance the green wing versus the blue collar workers in the energy sectors.
The other thing from this election, the Obama coalition might not transfer to other Democrats ... and unless they can figure out a way to win back the "rust belt" states, they are in trouble ... and they will have their own issues in the next primary, do they go really hard left (Warren, etc) or centrist (Booker, etc). They also had more minor losses at the lower levels of government (state houses) and that really has to be a concern as that is the bench for Congressional seats.
Trump is not going to fix things for those demographics, but he is the only one who made the effort to appeal to them. Hillary just called them deplorables.
I'm starting to think Bernie would've won. He appeals to a wider base than both Trump and Hillary.
I'm starting to think Bernie would've won. He appeals to a wider base than both Trump and Hillary.
