USA Politics

[Wästed The Great]

To emphasize my point on the futility (right now) of trying to ban firearms, look back at Zare's post. And Saabs (sp?) about money.

$140 Billion in handguns alone are floating around in the US. Not to mention ammo. So, gov't buy back? In the middle of a recession (or recovery or depression, whatever). In addition to killing off a multi -billion dollar industry? I'm sorry to use economy to also point this out-- but truth is, who would want to be the politician in the middle of a bad unemployment spell that sets out to stomp out that many jobs? I'm sorry, but it's the truth, whether culture or society or morality screams against it, its true. And if it's true, then let's look for something that CAN make a difference. Something that will make things change in an area that we know needs work.

 

[____no5]

You are an enlightened group of people and I don't see any good ideas on how to work on the mental health system here, just opinions on how guns are bad.

That's a good point.. Enhancing the social face of the state could be a good start.. Free education, health care, retirement guaranteed by the state, etc etc.. Enhancing the human values that make a person feel to part of something, not just a number.

 

[maidenn.c.indiana]

No matter what is done it's going to be a long time before results will be seen. How do we locate and treat the people with mental issues that make them more likely to perform these tragic deeds. It's not like there is test we can give that points them out. For the sake of argument let's say that we could locate all this people and we had some way to treat and maybe even cure them of their issues, what then? I mean I'm sure there would be some who would refuse treatment. Do we force them to undergo treatment? If we force these people against their freewill then what would we force others to do against their freewill? And believe me it could and probably would happen Now you're on a slippery slope from which there may be no return.

 

[Forostar]

I'm really surprised that I've posted that 3-4 times and all I get back are comments on how "US society is just too gun-centered and should change".

Because it is the biggest problem of all. At least a core of the problem that needs attention.

Really. We know that. It's obvious that with 350,000,000 handguns in ownership in the US, we like guns.

Actually, a lot is known. A lot has been researched. I disagree with anyone who thinks foreigners should have no say in this, or that people need to do (academical) research before they can engage in this discussion. Some topics are more universal than some might think. And by discussion we can learn from other members. E.g., Wasted told how difficult it is to change a law. But what is left now is action.

You are an enlightened group of people and I don't see any good ideas on how to work on the mental health system here, just opinions on how guns are bad.

Others are evading the problem of access. Yes, I also realize the mental problems. Both are problems and both should be addressed. Let's not have the illusion that mentally disturbed people who did not do a shooting, never had the idea to do this. Reason: not all people have access. I also have been trying to tell this a couple of times (e.g. check my last post on page 131). Actually, -without trying to sound arrogant- I feel I had quite some good input already, even if some of it was ignored or evaded.

 

[Forostar]

Actually, some foreign members (me included) gave arguments. We actually dived deeper into the problem, and handed out more solutions than the Americans themselves (apart from the law aspects by Wasted). So the anti-foreigner mentality in this thread was out of place. Sorry guys, I wanted to have this off my back because I want to continue on an equal basis. Thank you very much.

 

[maidenn.c.indiana]

I have no problems with foreigners speaking out on this subject. Unfortunately some of them have had similar tragic occurences in their own country. This problem is far too complex to say that the solution is to ban or reduce the amount of firearms in this country or to spend more to help treat people with mental issues. Would these actions help? Without a doubt they probably would. At the very least they couldn't hurt. But would they solve the problem? Unfortunately I don't believe so. If history has taught us anything it has taught us that given the chance certain individuals, nations, etc. will do their worst against other individuals, nations, etc.

 

[Forostar]

No matter what is done it's going to be a long time before results will be seen. How do we locate and treat the people with mental issues that make them more likely to perform these tragic deeds. It's not like there is test we can give that points them out. For the sake of argument let's say that we could locate all this people and we had some way to treat and maybe even cure them of their issues, what then? I mean I'm sure there would be some who would refuse treatment. Do we force them to undergo treatment? If we force these people against their freewill then what would we force others to do against their freewill? And believe me it could and probably would happen Now you're on a slippery slope from which there may be no return.

Some people need forced treatment, just as some others need punishment. Meanwhile, why not do a little more research on people who want to own a weapon.

"Do you want an assault weapon, madam?'
"Do you have other people living in your house? Who are they?" etc. etc.
It will touch people's privacy but it will also save lifes.

 

[bearfan]

HIPPA laws pretty much prevent anyone from getting anyone's medical (including mental) information.

In non-shooting news,

Tim Scott will replace Jim DeMint in the US Senate, making him the only black person in the Senate, the first GOP black Senator since 1979, and the first black Senator from the South since Reconstruction.

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

HIPPA laws pretty much prevent anyone from getting anyone's medical (including mental) information.

In non-shooting news,

Tim Scott will replace Jim DeMint in the US Senate, making him the only black person in the Senate, the first GOP black Senator since 1979, and the first black Senator from the South since Reconstruction.

That's really surprising ... the other two not so much, perhaps.

 

[bearfan]

These are the only black Senators ever ... 2 were replacement appointments (as is Scott, he will run on his own in 2014)

1. Hiram Revels (R-Miss.) 1870-71
2. Blanche Bruce (R-Miss.) 1875-1881
3. Edward Brooke (R-Mass.) 1967-1979
4. Carol Mosely Braun (D-Ill.) 1993-1999
5. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) 2005-2008
6. Roland Burris (D-Ill.) 2009-2010

 

[Brigantium]

These are the only black Senators ever ... 2 were replacement appointments (as is Scott, he will run on his own in 2014)

1. Hiram Revels (R-Miss.) 1870-71
2. Blanche Bruce (R-Miss.) 1875-1881
3. Edward Brooke (R-Mass.) 1967-1979
4. Carol Mosely Braun (D-Ill.) 1993-1999
5. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) 2005-2008
6. Roland Burris (D-Ill.) 2009-2010

Seriously?? I'd thought there would have been loads

 

[Wästed The Great]

So, Foro, are you saying that, if you had a gun in your house, and you got super pissed at someone, you couldn't resist the urge to grab your gun and go shoot them?

 

[Yax]

So, Foro, are you saying that, if you had a gun in your house, and you got super pissed at someone, you couldn't resist the urge to grab your gun and go shoot them?

That is not what he's saying. Look, we can go about this all day but fact remains, that guns are the most common murder weapons, close to 70 % according to the FBI.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state here, and they in turn cite and make FBI statistics available for download. You'll find statistics for robberies and assaults as well.

Edit: I agree that this is a hard nut to crack, and short terms solutions are out of the question - There aren't any viable short term solutions. But gun control is an issue that needs to be adressed somehow.

Edit 2: I remember doing a paper on guns five years ago. I was struck by the fact that Finland and Switzerland, both with high numbers of firearm circulation compared to population, have far less murders commited using guns per 100.000 citizens (as well as murders in general) than in the US.

 

[Sebas-hero1995]

Regarding foreigners in this topic, as a mexican I can say that the fate of gun industry in the US is very important to my country. Do you know how much of the guns the drug cartels have are made and sell LEGALLY in the US? That's part of our problem, as when we were having our "Revolution" in the 1910's, the US has a lot to gain if there is gun-violence in Mexico. I think that the problem with the guns, as I stated earlier, is not about the society, the freedom or rights, it's about the money they made and the money they would be losing after the banning or restriction or whatever. Also I think, well if they want to have a small self-defense gun, ok, it's their own business. The problem arrives when they also sell guns that in other countries are "army exclusive" use, guns that would overcome the local police by a lot.

 

[Wästed The Great]

That is not what he's saying. .

Wästed The Great said: ↑

I'm really surprised that I've posted that 3-4 times and all I get back are comments on how "US society is just too gun-centered and should change".​

Because it is the biggest problem of all. At least a core of the problem that needs attention.

That's exactly what he is saying. He said that people are killed by guns because they are so easy to use and that is the main problem. So, I'm, hypothetically asking, would a rational person be like that?

 

[Yax]

Wästed The Great said: ↑

I'm really surprised that I've posted that 3-4 times and all I get back are comments on how "US society is just too gun-centered and should change".​

That's exactly what he is saying. He said that people are killed by guns because they are so easy to use and that is the main problem. So, I'm, hypothetically asking, would a rational person be like that?

Yes, that is what he is saying - That the enourmous and easy access of guns is a part of the problem. And while there maybe isn't as simple as saying that all gun shot victims all over the US or the world would be alive it it wasn't for the guns, it would be preposterous to deny any correlation..
What he isn't saying is that a rational person like himself would go all guns blazing just because he has a gun. But again. 70% of the FBI-registered murders are committed using firearms, and there are over hundred thousand registered robberies and assaults using firearms, annually.

 

[Forostar]

So, Foro, are you saying that, if you had a gun in your house, and you got super pissed at someone, you couldn't resist the urge to grab your gun and go shoot them?

That's not likely.

But I'd like to dive further into the irrational state of mind, which is sometimes not far from the rational.

If a kid gets pestered for years, or ignored, and he wouldn't speak about it, doesn't share it to someone he can trust, then there is a bigger chance (even if it's minor, the chance still increases) that the kid either could get very desperate, sad, afraid, or angry. At its worst, it could lead to attempts of suicide, or incredible, uncontrollable fear or anger. The same when a kid has a psychiatric kind of problem and when no one notices this.

You better not have weapons near such kids. To notice and to treat the state of the kid is already difficult enough. Now this is a serious problem, which various members have addressed.

Going back to myself, I had some difficult time myself at the age of 17 (though this did not result in violence or suicidal thoughts; it was more about fear), and I am very glad that my parents acted as soon as they could, as soon as they had seen the change.

A change can go fast. Especially from the outside. Rational persons can get irrational. Not everybody was born irrational, and even if it's in someone's genes, then still it's not always easily detected (known) in an early stage.

 

[____no5]

Edit 2: I remember doing a paper on guns five years ago. I was struck by the fact that Finland and Switzerland, both with high numbers of firearm circulation compared to population, have far less murders commited using guns per 100.000 citizens (as well as murders in general) than in the US.

And here we are!! Just give people security & the sense that they belong somewhere and the phenomena of extreme aggressiveness will be reduced.

In such a competent & liberal country like US weak people can freak out much easier than the average Scandinavian, Swiss etc etc

That's a good point.. Enhancing the social face of the state could be a good start.. Free education, health care, retirement guaranteed by the state, etc etc.. Enhancing the human values that make a person feel to part of something, not just a number.

 

[Yax]

I will add though that in Finland, it isn't handguns, but hunting rifles and shotguns - In Switzerland, it's full on sub machine guns, as the militia (and there are a shitload of militiamen) store their weapons and ammo at home.

 

[Forostar]

Slightly off-topic:
My info could be outdated or wrong, but isn't there a higher rate of suicide in Finland? Not sure if the feeling of "security" is that great up there, then(?)