USA Politics

No worries. I just get frustrated when people try to base how my country should behave based on how their country is. It's like trying to get all of Europe to agree on a major policy; it is a huge under taking. I'm pretty sure my state is the same size or larger than Holland is. And there are 49 other states that have to all go along with it. It isn't just about freedoms or rights, but laws as well. We are civilized, no matter what you or anyone thinks. And because of that, we have to abide by how our laws are created, modified or redacted. Right now, it's a right to own a firearm. You can't just say "that doesn't sound good, let's take that away". There are rules for how it must be done. And the rules for my country are different from pretty much every other country.

Also, I live in the USA; that speech was on 4 out of my 5 channels.
 
It's like Neil Peart said, gravity and distance change the colour of right.
Don't think we are going to change minds on this one.
 
Indeed wasted. I agree the most with Sebas-hero1995, mckindog and Rotam but if they'd live in the USA I'd feel the same about it.
 
No worries. I just get frustrated when people try to base how my country should behave based on how their country is.

I somehow feel the same way, even though I'm not American, and anti-gun. I've always had the feeling that to solve a problem, you need to study it and get to the core of it by trying to understand what is happening, how it is happening, and why it is happening. Unfortunately, whenever I actually try to explain to someone of my thoughts, I get accused of being apologetic because people will not listen to the end. So I lose the motivation to say anything at all anymore.
 
You are aware that almost at the same time a crazed man in China killed/injured 20 people with a knife... Are we to say Chinese knife control is dumb? For the millionth time, it's not the guns, it's not the knives, it's the people behind them. I can kill you with an Encyclopedia Britannica while you sleep, are we going to ban/control books after that?

By definition, weapon is a tool used to inflict damage. Furthermore, tool is defined as an physical object that's used as aid in reaching particular goal.
Therefore any physical object that's used to inflict damage becomes a weapon.

However, guns and arms are tools designed to provide aid in damaging, injuring, and killing life. That's their primary function.

It takes helluva more effort to kill somebody with an tool that wasn't designed as weapon, than with one that was. Knife or Encyclopedia. Onhell, if I wanted you dead, and I had an AK-47, you would probably end up dead. But if I only had a knife, you stand a great chance of not only surviving, but even defending from my attack. We cannot do anything about people behind the weapons, because they are already killers by their own psyche, but we surely can do a lot for the outcome of their actions.

In any case, USA has a weapon culture. That's completely idiotic.

I agree with the main premise behind American laws, especially when you place them in the context of their time. But...

@Wasted, we had a bloody civil war in a country that had big military industry and million strong territorial defense. 5 years of complete lawless chaos. You can imagine how much arms was left around after the war. There was a action by the government 10 years ago, where you could just turn in your illegal arms to police station, and that's it. No questions, no documents, no signatures. Did it help? Yes. Was it enough? No. This year, there were three major murders in my city - a guy slaughted a Mexican woman, one local had limbs and head severed off, and another was just executed with a bullet to the head. So firearms were only 1/3 of the cases. Let's not examine the means, but the cause - the two latter were tied to loanshark businesses. The poor Mexican girl was throat-cutted by a lunatic. The demise of social and economic system inflates number of murders, regardless of the tool. If you have a ill society, you have a problem. Problems are dealt at base, not at the top.

Lets face it - due to way that Western society works today, people spend less and less time with their children. Educational institutions are mainly being ran for profit, and then everyone is shocked that a 26 year old quiet and shy guy slaughted a tourist and dumped her body. Someone should've seen it. His parents, staff at his school. Until we find time for ourselves again, we are going to have chronicles filled with bad news.

Compare the numbers for USA and Europe today and 30 years ago. Laws haven't changed, numbers did. So guns aren't really the root of the problem. But their all around accessibility makes it far less of a hassle to do a mass murder.

For USA, it's really hard to do anything about those laws, because guns have been legal for 200+ years. There are people manufacturing them, there are people selling them, there are people working with them, and of course, people who bought them with their own money with law's consent. Ban them - people lost jobs and investment.

As you can see, I don't have an exact opinion of what should be done with guns, since the issue is far more complicated - what's been happening is just a nuance of big problem, and that problem won't be solved until someone implements a decent and humane socio-economic system. Mental problems form murdereds; they can be the result of a biological issue, or a social one. How many of those killers we talk about were psychopats by birth? How many were turned to psychopats by our society?
 
By definition, weapon is a tool used to inflict damage. Furthermore, tool is defined as an physical object that's used as aid in reaching particular goal.
Therefore any physical object that's used to inflict damage becomes a weapon.

However, guns and arms are tools designed to provide aid in damaging, injuring, and killing life. That's their primary function.

It takes helluva more effort to kill somebody with an tool that wasn't designed as weapon, than with one that was. Knife or Encyclopedia. Onhell, if I wanted you dead, and I had an AK-47, you would probably end up dead. But if I only had a knife, you stand a great chance of not only surviving, but even defending from my attack. We cannot do anything about people behind the weapons, because they are already killers by their own psyche, but we surely can do a lot for the outcome of their actions.

In any case, USA has a weapon culture. That's completely idiotic.

Quoted for emphasis. I couldn't have said it better.
 
I somehow feel the same way, even though I'm not American, and anti-gun. I've always had the feeling that to solve a problem, you need to study it and get to the core of it by trying to understand what is happening, how it is happening, and why it is happening. Unfortunately, whenever I actually try to explain to someone of my thoughts, I get accused of being apologetic because people will not listen to the end. So I lose the motivation to say anything at all anymore.

All too familiar. I have experienced being labeled both a naïve immigration apologetic and a borderline racist in the same discussion, based on appropriate fragments of my opinions.

The US handgun policy and the frequency of shooting sprees is a topic of the same nature. There are other countries where many people have guns (Canada, the Nordic countries) without the same happening remotely as frequent - so it's obvious that it's not only the access to weapons that makes these tragedies happen. (And they do happen other places as well - in recent years both Germany and Finland have had them. I'm not counting the July 22 massacre, because it seems to be politically motivated and thus is better labeled as terrorism). But there is no simple solution to this problem. Make guns less accessible? Those who want one can still get one. Change the society so that these killers don't pop up? How?
 
I think that what I've been trying to point out is that the effort to make guns illegal is overwhelmingly difficult. The resources that are being dumped into that pot, from both sides, can be used for something that better addresses the issue.

I saw an article someone posted about her son and his mental illness. In the US, mental illness isn't given the efforts to cure that it deserves. If you're overweight, there are tons of things that can be done, and a lot covered by health insurance. But mental health is injecting someone with drugs that put them in a walking coma and locking them in a scary room with mean underpaid, under educated, overworked interns.

Pay attention to peoples mental health and watch that mass killings drop from site.

You'll never stop crimes of passion (like the KC one), but if you help the people that really have problems, you'll be on the right path to curing this shooting spree issue.
 
IMO opinion part of the problem is a lack of discipline among this country's youth. When I was growing up you knew that if you messed up there were going to be consequences such as being grounded or getting your ass busted. Today if you tried to bust your kids ass for messing up, somebody possibly even your own child would call the local child protection services and your ass would be going to jail. I'm not talking about beating the hell out of your kids for no reason or because you're having a bad day. Speaking as someone who seemed to get his ass busted everyday I can attest that it did me no harm and I can honestly say that looking back on it I deserved every ass busting my parents gave me. Today, and I've had arguments with ex girlfriends when the idea of having kids was brought up, you're supposed to reason with the kids. Hey you want to stay up past your bedtime? O.K. we'll discuss it. You want to play with matches? Sorry but I'm going to bust your ass. That way I don't have to worry about you burning down the house and seriously hurting or killing yourself and possibly others. I was raised to respect my elders. Today I hear kids backtalking and saying shit to their parents that I would have never dreamed of saying much less actually saying it. And the parent's just take it. That's their fault because the kids know there will be no consequences. As the saying goes, spare the rod spoil the child. Some of todays youth needs that rod broke over their ass if not their heads.
 
I think if you are talking about stealing and doing stupid stuff, that can be true. However, many of these killing spree people go way beyond that. There is a clear disconnect from reality at the point that they decide to start shooting people up. Even kids that are spoiled rotten know enough of society to know that it's wrong to go on a killing spree and shoot up innocent people.

Honestly, it's opinions like thinking more discipline is the solution that are part of the problem. And I mean no offense by that, but if you look into the issues of many of these shootings, it wasn't because the kids didn't have structure. It's because they had major mental illness that wasn't addressed in the proper way.
 
Sorry Wasted, I agree with your take on mental health issues, but I have to challenge the statement on crimes of passion.
You can't stop crimes of passion, but you can reduce them by making guns less accessible.
Zare spelled out why very well.
Of course it won't eliminate them, but that doesn't mean reduction should not be a goal.
 
While I respect your opinion I have to disagree. Discipline is a strong part of structure IMO. Mental health is a major part of the problem I agree and without a doubt more resources need to be used to confront and correct this problem. I don't know your age, but I can remember back in the early 80's there was a national outcry over the legal ruling" guilty but mentally insane". It seemed like every time somebody shot another person, that was the legal defense. A prime example being John Hinkley. Oh I shot the president but I did it to impress Jodi Foster so I'm not guilty I was insane at the time. It was funny how sane some of these people were immediately before and after commiting their crime, but at that specific moment they were claiming to be insane and therefore not responisible for their actions. Now I'm sure some of these people probably were insane, but for the majority it was a legal ploy.Perhaps the lack of funding for mental health services stems from the actions these people and their lawyers pulled.
 
Sorry Wasted, I agree with your take on mental health issues, but I have to challenge the statement on crimes of passion.
You can't stop crimes of passion, but you can reduce them by making guns less accessible.
Zare spelled out why very well.
Of course it won't eliminate them, but that doesn't mean reduction should not be a goal.

I'm not specifically disagreeing with you. However, it seems that no one really can grasp the culture where guns will always be here. Call us barbarians or whatever one wants, but guns are baked into this society. We rebelled to create this nation with guns, took over the western half of the continent with guns, grow up playing 'cowboys and indians' and all dream of being Patrick Swayze in Red Dawn, just waiting to take to the mountains and shoot down all the commies that come parachuting in. I'm not saying it's a good thing. What I am saying is that I don't see how it's ever going to change enough to take firearms out of this society. Too many people hold that as their god given right, to own a firearm, and that's one of the few things that separates this country from many others. Again, I'm not saying that it's right, nor do I agree with it all. But if one is going to 'fight the good fight', one needs to know what battles are worth fighting.
 
If you want to reduce the amount of firearms great. But tell me this, where and how do you start to reduce the amount of firearms because you're not going to start by taking mine away. Sorry if you don't like that but do you really think that I'm the only one who feels that way? It's a natural reaction. I've done no wrong and broke no laws so I'm going to keep mine. When everybody else, and I do mean everybody,gives up their firearms I'll gladly give mine up. But until then??? Do I need them? Maybe not. But It's like a lot of things in this world where I'd rather have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it.
 
We rebelled to create this nation with guns, took over the western half of the continent with guns, grow up playing 'cowboys and indians' and all dream of being Patrick Swayze in Red Dawn, just waiting to take to the mountains and shoot down all the commies that come parachuting in.

That's the case of most of countries Wasted, at least this is the case of my country. We too, were playing cowboys & indians, and all the new territories taken by everyone, have been taken with guns.. Don't forget that we Europeans have had much more bloodshed in our history that your relatively new country..

I strongly believe that the reason that guns are so inside the US culture is the over the top esteem of the private property. I think this is what is all about, nothing else. This culture can and must change.
 
I'm not specifically disagreeing with you. However, it seems that no one really can grasp the culture where guns will always be here. Call us barbarians or whatever one wants, but guns are baked into this society. We rebelled to create this nation with guns, took over the western half of the continent with guns, grow up playing 'cowboys and indians' and all dream of being Patrick Swayze in Red Dawn, just waiting to take to the mountains and shoot down all the commies that come parachuting in. I'm not saying it's a good thing. What I am saying is that I don't see how it's ever going to change enough to take firearms out of this society. Too many people hold that as their god given right, to own a firearm, and that's one of the few things that separates this country from many others. Again, I'm not saying that it's right, nor do I agree with it all. But if one is going to 'fight the good fight', one needs to know what battles are worth fighting.
I hear you, and agree there is a cultural divide that is vast and needs a lot of work to cross. But both your country and mine once thought women should be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. We may not have overcome that thinking completely, but we've come a long way. It can be done.
 
We too, were playing cowboys & indians, and all the new territories taken by everyone, have been taken with guns.. Don't forget that we Europeans have had much more bloodshed in our history that your relatively new country..

Nah, not really. All conquering done by Norway (except for the conquering of the North and South Pole) happened well before firearms were in common use :p And the North and South pole were taken by skis and sled dogs :D

(I just felt for a more light-hearted post in an otherwise heated debate)
 
I'm sorry, and amazed, that you guys just don't seem to get it. First, I'm not saying that the culture shouldn't be changed. What I'm saying, however, is there are far greater problems at hand. If you want to see a greater impact on society, look at the real problem. It's almost a joke to say this anymore, but guns don't kill people, people kill people. Figure out what is happening and why. Right now, in today's society, it's a total waste of resources to try to ban guns. That being the case, put resources towards people.

I'm really surprised that I've posted that 3-4 times and all I get back are comments on how "US society is just too gun-centered and should change". Really. We know that. It's obvious that with 350,000,000 handguns in ownership in the US, we like guns.
You are an enlightened group of people and I don't see any good ideas on how to work on the mental health system here, just opinions on how guns are bad.
 
Nah, not really. All conquering done by Norway (except for the conquering of the North and South Pole) happened well before firearms were in common use :p And the North and South pole were taken by skis and sled dogs :D

(I just felt for a more light-hearted post in an otherwise heated debate)

Light hearted is good!! :)
 
Back
Top