Re Reform an Scotland, I suspect in their current form they're way too English to get anywhere. Farage is second hand car salesman English nationalism personified. If they created Reform Scotland on the other hand, and got a Scottish leader for that, they might gain ground there.
The most recent polls for the Scottish election next year actually have them neck-and-neck with Labour in second place, with each sitting around 20%, but of course the SNP are a country mile ahead of everyone else. Obviously you can only put so much stock in opinion polls but they certainly seem to have managed to cut through in Scotland in a way that UKIP never could, given that they never got out of the low single-digit percentages there even when they were at their peak in England. This is quite interesting to me as I had always had the notion that Farage was very unpopular with the Scots.
Given that there are both Welsh and Scottish elections next year as well as a super-sized set of local elections in England (a number of regions postponed theirs this year), if Reform keep up their current levels of support it will almost certainly see the end of Badenoch as Tory leader (she is a total no-hoper and there is a near zero probability she will contest the next general election) and could possibly lead to Starmer being challenged, though the Labour party are not quite as efficient and decisive as the Tories when it comes to knifing their leaders in the back.
Yeah Farage tends to get chased out of Scotland any time he appears, which makes the Reform polling seem odd. I think it's a combination of a snowball effect from the English council elections and the slow death of the Scottish Conservative party.
Unionist voters flocked to them after the referendum but they've had nothing to say but "SNP bad, independence bad" for over a decade so it doesn't surprise me that those voters might be looking for a new political home. Like the Conservatives I expect Reform will find they have a pretty hard ceiling for Scottish support, likely even lower as there's some moderate Conservatives that just won't play with Reforms brand of fuckery.
Reform have little chance up here because Farage represents that stereotypical right wing English twit we love to hate. The face of Brexit. That being said, Conservative voters are flocking to them and whatever is left of Scottish Labour might go to the SNP given that Starmer is trying his best to alienate his base by pandering to the far-right.
Reform have little chance up here because Farage represents that stereotypical right wing English twit we love to hate. The face of Brexit. That being said, Conservative voters are flocking to them and whatever is left of Scottish Labour might go to the SNP given that Starmer is trying his best to alienate his base by pandering to the far-right. View attachment 42178
And Gaelic speakers. Maybe Starmer should stop bein a wannabe Tory cunt and increase spending on resources for English language lessons for migrants. That might create a few jobs for teachers, increase integration and understanding both ways and make migrants more employable outside their own migrant communities.
Makes sense but that would involve Makin Britain Great Again, a whole lot harder than makin people prove their level of English. It would also require positive action. Does positivity even win votes these days?
Skint, angry people in deprived areas will still be skint, angry people in deprived areas whether or not there's a Syrian family next door or not.
Yeah, Labour are gunning hard for Tory voters, hence benefits crackdowns, cheering on business, doing the old cutback/austerity thing, and now tightening the rules on (economic) migrants. The Conservatives were already gunning hard for people to the right of their demographic, so it's no surprise Labour is going further that way too. I'd still prefer centrists or even vaguely right of centre by a mile to the dodgy spivs and populist right wingers who ousted the traditional Tory leadership after Brexit and the descended into directionless populism and infighting. They lost the last election on the back of populist overtures and incoherent economic direction. It's just not why people generally vote Conservative.
Besides, what makes a Tory nowadays, anyway? I haven't been following the UK news for some time (dealing with personal stuff) and from what I gathered, Tories were doing some bizarre stuff like "no one from this generation onwards will be able to smoke ever in their life" and "we will prohibit this breed of dog" which doesn't seem ... aimed at their voters, exactly? Or at anyone, really?
Where is the horse and the rider?
Where are the rivers of blood?
Where is the Enoch, the Powell?
The fascists are fascing no more.
Where is the nice accent
Excepting Jacob Rees-Mogg
Where is the Empire that knows no sunset
Where is the yellow acid fog?
Now seriously, could you (anyone) please give me just a little bit of update after all the restructuring, where do the parties stand? I don't expect that there is going to be any socially conservative, economically left party in particular, but I'd really like to know who to watch more closely and with whom I'd vibe the most. And also who to avoid.
Besides, what makes a Tory nowadays, anyway? I haven't been following the UK news for some time (dealing with personal stuff) and from what I gathered, Tories were doing some bizarre stuff like "no one from this generation onwards will be able to smoke ever in their life" and "we will prohibit this breed of dog" which doesn't seem ... aimed at their voters, exactly? Or at anyone, really?
Where is the horse and the rider?
Where are the rivers of blood?
Where is the Enoch, the Powell?
The fascists are fascing no more.
Where is the nice accent
Excepting Jacob Rees-Mogg
Where is the Empire that knows no sunset
Where is the yellow acid fog?
Now seriously, could you (anyone) please give me just a little bit of update after all the restructuring, where do the parties stand? I don't expect that there is going to be any socially conservative, economically left party in particular, but I'd really like to know who to watch more closely and with whom I'd vibe the most. And also who to avoid.
The Tory party have been exposed in recent years as an entirely useless entity, who serve nobody but themselves. Despite bearing the name 'conservative', they managed to do precisely nothing conservative during their 14 years in office, and in fact incubated the entire hot-button issue in British politics today by promising to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands (from around 300,000 at the time) and in fact succeeding in more than tripling this figure by the time they left office. Add to this a general reputation for sleaze, corruption, in-fighting and economic mismanagement and you have an old and famous political party that is on its way to a well deserved self-destruction.
As for the parties as they stand now, this would be my take:
Labour - centre-left but have half-heartedly adopted some centre-right and populist positions since being elected - though there is a substantial wing of the party that are much further left than the current leadership.
Reform - populist right - anti-immigration + Thatcherite economics, they have gobbled up a big chunk of the Tory vote and a lot of the traditional working class Labour vote. The latest electoral vehicle for Nigel Farage, who is essentially the only well-known figure.
Liberal Democrats - Centrist party on paper but more left than present-day Labour on many social issues - broadly seen as the 'nice' party for the well-to-do middle class, they are making moderate gains at the expense of some Labour vote share and more liberal Tories
Conservative Party - A party in an utter nosedive, with a totally ineffectual leader and no policies, really what are they good for?
Green Party - The most left-wing party with representation in parliament, naturally they place a heavy emphasis on environmental policies. Have previously championed rather ludicrous positions such as 'abolish the armed forces and the nuclear deterrent' but have simmered down on those in the light of recent geopolitical developments. Many of the leftist branch of Labour have joined up and there is some overlap with the Gaza Independents below.
Gaza Independents - Not a formally organised party but at the last election several traditional labour super-majority areas were overthrown by (predominantly Islamic) candidates who based their campaigning on pro-Gaza/Palestine issues. This number could increase significantly next election.
SNP/Plaid Cymru - Left-wing nationalist parties for Scotland and Wales respectively, each will likely be the largest parties in their respective national parliaments next year.
Thank you for all this, for taking the time. So it kinda confirms my suspicion, some combination of Labour + Liberal Democrats as the most palatable choice (and in fact, the only moderate choice).
I'm also not surprised at all that - as an actual, classical conservative - I don't feel much connection with any party that proclaims itself "conservative" (I really dislike Thatcher, Reagan and their neoliberalistic inheritance with some intensity, for example), Moorcock must have been wrong, lol.
Thank you for all this, for taking the time. So it kinda confirms my suspicion, some combination of Labour + Liberal Democrats as the most palatable choice (and in fact, the only moderate choice).
I'm also not surprised at all that - as an actual, classical conservative - I don't feel much connection with any party that proclaims itself "conservative" (I really dislike Thatcher, Reagan and their neoliberalistic inheritance with some intensity, for example), Moorcock must have been wrong, lol.
Yes, I think it would be accurate to say that there is no mainstream political outlet for traditional conservatism in the UK these days - you may find Peter Hitchens' views on the Tory party interesting if you want to know more about this, if you don't know him he is the brother of famous atheist Christopher Hitchens, though he is in many ways the mirror of his brother and is actually a conservative Christian.
There is a very minor party called the SDP (Social Democratic Party) that brand themselves as economically left-wing and culturally conservative but frankly they are a complete non-entity at this point in time.
Yes, I think it would be accurate to say that there is no mainstream political outlet for traditional conservatism in the UK these days - you may find Peter Hitchens' views on the Tory party interesting if you want to know more about this, if you don't know him he is the brother of famous atheist Christopher Hitchens, though he is in many ways the mirror of his brother and is actually a conservative Christian.
I vaguely know of him, although I was reserved regarding some of the positions he was having (IIRC - and checking his Wikipedia page confirms my suspicions), but I'd be interested in his takes, as he is probably still closer to my worldview than most - and if he takes after that brilliant demagogue brother of his, it will be a fascinating read.
What should I pick up? The Broken Compass? Or some specific articles?
(BTW I'd be willing to read Phoney Victory as well, that looks fascinating in its premise)
The Tory party have been exposed in recent years as an entirely useless entity, who serve nobody but themselves. Despite bearing the name 'conservative', they managed to do precisely nothing conservative during their 14 years in office, and in fact incubated the entire hot-button issue in British politics today by promising to bring net migration down to the tens of thousands (from around 300,000 at the time) and in fact succeeding in more than tripling this figure by the time they left office. Add to this a general reputation for sleaze, corruption, in-fighting and economic mismanagement and you have an old and famous political party that is on its way to a well deserved self-destruction.
As for the parties as they stand now, this would be my take:
Labour - centre-left but have half-heartedly adopted some centre-right and populist positions since being elected - though there is a substantial wing of the party that are much further left than the current leadership.
Reform - populist right - anti-immigration + Thatcherite economics, they have gobbled up a big chunk of the Tory vote and a lot of the traditional working class Labour vote. The latest electoral vehicle for Nigel Farage, who is essentially the only well-known figure.
Liberal Democrats - Centrist party on paper but more left than present-day Labour on many social issues - broadly seen as the 'nice' party for the well-to-do middle class, they are making moderate gains at the expense of some Labour vote share and more liberal Tories
Conservative Party - A party in an utter nosedive, with a totally ineffectual leader and no policies, really what are they good for?
Green Party - The most left-wing party with representation in parliament, naturally they place a heavy emphasis on environmental policies. Have previously championed rather ludicrous positions such as 'abolish the armed forces and the nuclear deterrent' but have simmered down on those in the light of recent geopolitical developments. Many of the leftist branch of Labour have joined up and there is some overlap with the Gaza Independents below.
Gaza Independents - Not a formally organised party but at the last election several traditional labour super-majority areas were overthrown by (predominantly Islamic) candidates who based their campaigning on pro-Gaza/Palestine issues. This number could increase significantly next election.
SNP/Plaid Cymru - Left-wing nationalist parties for Scotland and Wales respectively, each will likely be the largest parties in their respective national parliaments next year.
I vaguely know of him, although I was reserved regarding some of the positions he was having (IIRC - and checking his Wikipedia page confirms my suspicions), but I'd be interested in his takes, as he is probably still closer to my worldview than most - and if he takes after that brilliant demagogue brother of his, it will be a fascinating read.
What should I pick up? The Broken Compass? Or some specific articles?
(BTW I'd be willing to read Phoney Victory as well, that looks fascinating in its premise)
Peter Hitchens may accurately be described as the ultimate contrarian and the ultimate pessimist. I can see why you would have reservations on some of his positions (I would share some of those reservations) but in his assessment of the modern-day Tory party I think he is largely accurate. I'm sure there are other users who are more left than me who no doubt would level plenty of criticism towards them from other directions, but this is the criticism of the Tory party from the small-c conservative point of view. The Broken Compass is the exhaustive work of his on this account but obviously does not cover anything past its 2009 publication date - this more contemporary article may be a good starting point to see if you enjoy his style of writing:
The case can be argued and indeed is argued by a sizeable number of people, but personally I would consider them more to be in the populist mould. What I do believe is that if you are of the far-right, you would vote for Reform because they are surely the closest electoral prospect to what you want, you might even join the party and try to steer them in that direction, the question is - to what extent do this contingent control the direction of the party? So far, I haven't seen any of their policies that to my view cross the line from populism/cheap culture-wars bait to extremism, but I don't know if there is a solid definition of where this line is to be drawn. To me it is noteworthy that individuals in the party who espouse more radical positions (former deputy leader Ben Habib and MP Rupert Lowe) have been booted out since the election.
Knowing from your posts and indeed your profile picture and signature that you are firmly a man of the left, I would be interested to know what you made of Keir Starmer's immigration policy speech earlier this week, as this has received criticism for being somewhat Faragist in character.
Knowing from your posts and indeed your profile picture and signature that you are firmly a man of the left, I would be interested to know what you made of Keir Starmer's immigration policy speech earlier this week, as this has received criticism for being somewhat Faragist in character.
As you can imagine, I am not particularly happy with his speech. As an immigrant myself who became a British citizen some years ago, I agree with the need to integrate and have a good command of the English language, but I strongly disagree with the rhetoric. Also, it looks like a knee-jerk reaction to Reform's success at the recent local elections. People who vote Reform are very unlikely to ever vote Labour again if they ever did. Also, most wins by Reform were at the expense of the Tories, while most Labour losses went to the Greens or the Liberal Democrats. Why not focus on what matters to the majority of voters rather than pandering the far-right? A significant number of them did not even cast their vote in the local elections!
As I mentioned above, Keir Starmer has been doing an excellent job at alienating those of us in the left who usually vote/are likely to vote Labour. I seriously hope he changes tack and steers to the left before the next election because otherwise he would not be getting my vote.
I will quote the inspirational politician whose picture I use as profile: "This is my truth, tell me yours".
As you can imagine, I am not particularly happy with his speech. As an immigrant myself who became a British citizen some years ago, I agree with the need to integrate and have a good command of the English language, but I strongly disagree with the rhetoric. Also, it looks like a knee-jerk reaction to Reform's success at the recent local elections. People who vote Reform are very unlikely to ever vote Labour again if they ever did. Also, most wins by Reform were at the expense of the Tories, while most Labour losses went to the Greens or the Liberal Democrats. Why not focus on what matters to the majority of voters rather than pandering the far-right? A significant number of them did not even cast their vote in the local elections!
As I mentioned above, Keir Starmer has been doing an excellent job at alienating those of us in the left who usually vote/are likely to vote Labour. I seriously hope he changes tack and steers to the left before the next election because otherwise he would not be getting my vote.
Besides, what makes a Tory nowadays, anyway? I haven't been following the UK news for some time (dealing with personal stuff) and from what I gathered, Tories were doing some bizarre stuff like "no one from this generation onwards will be able to smoke ever in their life" and "we will prohibit this breed of dog" which doesn't seem ... aimed at their voters, exactly? Or at anyone, really?
Where is the horse and the rider?
Where are the rivers of blood?
Where is the Enoch, the Powell?
The fascists are fascing no more.
Where is the nice accent
Excepting Jacob Rees-Mogg
Where is the Empire that knows no sunset
Where is the yellow acid fog?
Now seriously, could you (anyone) please give me just a little bit of update after all the restructuring, where do the parties stand? I don't expect that there is going to be any socially conservative, economically left party in particular, but I'd really like to know who to watch more closely and with whom I'd vibe the most. And also who to avoid.
The smoking thing and the dog thing was actually pretty much aligned with their traditional voter demographic. Smoking is costing the NHS an absolute tonne (although many Conservatives want that privatised anyway), and heavy smoking is associated with poorer people. The explosion in the popularity of XL Bullies in the hands of totally irresponsible (and largely working class) owners was linked to a steady rise in the number of fatal dog attacks on people. The other option would have been to bring back generic dog licensing, which would have cost a fortune to administer.
It might have even been the Conservatives who brought in the original dangerous dogs act, back when certain breeds were very fashionable with blokes trying to look 'hard' on the street, and there was an increase in dog attacks then too.
Banning trendy bull breeds and cutting down on kids and young people smoking certainly wasn't exactly going to be a problem for the traditional Tory voting demographic.
Bear in mind that laissez-faire only applied to Conservative economic policy. They always had the habit of being quite authoritarian in other respects.
Up the Irons has pinned down the current UK political scene perfectly I think.
The smoking thing and the dog thing was actually pretty much aligned with their traditional voter demographic. Smoking is costing the NHS an absolute tonne (although many Conservatives want that privatised anyway), and heavy smoking is associated with poorer people. The explosion in the popularity of XL Bullies in the hands of totally irresponsible (and largely working class) owners was linked to a steady rise in the number of fatal dog attacks on people. The other option would have been to bring back generic dog licensing, which would have cost a fortune to administer.
It might have even been the Conservatives who brought in the original dangerous dogs act, back when certain breeds were very fashionable with blokes trying to look 'hard' on the street, and there was an increase in dog attacks then too.
Banning trendy bull breeds and cutting down on kids and young people smoking certainly wasn't exactly going to be a problem for the traditional Tory voting demographic.
Bear in mind that laissez-faire only applied to Conservative economic policy. They always had the habit of being quite authoritarian in other respects.
Up the Irons has pinned down the current UK political scene perfectly I think.
That's really fascinating. I hear what you're saying about authoritarianism, but I differentiate between the two - this kind of social engineering is almost exclusively connected with the far left in my country, it would be virtual suicide for any mainstream party that would try such thing.
That's really fascinating. I hear what you're saying about authoritarianism, but I differentiate between the two - this kind of social engineering is almost exclusively connected with the far left in my country, it would be virtual suicide for any mainstream party that would try such thing.
I think that most people here wouldn't consider banning smoking or dangerous dog breeds as social engineering. To most it's just common sense.
EDIT: And I say that as someone who gave up a 20 year smoking habit. No amount of heavy taxes on them made a difference when you're fully addicted. I'd personally love a full ban on them just to remove that temptation.
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