UK Politics

srfc said:
Giving up neutrality would probably be an even bigger deal.
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So Ireland is completely neutral in any conflict? I know it's not a member of NATO which I thought was due to reluctance to enter a military alliance with a nation which is sees as an occupying force.
 
Dr. Eddies Wingman said:
Why are you addressing me when replying to someone else?
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I reacted to this:
Dr. Eddies Wingman said:
do you have an impression of what kind of Brexit the Leave voters (or the majority of them) wanted? Was it believed that a reasonable deal could be made before exiting, or was the idea already back in 2016 a full Ctrl-Alt-Delete of the relations to the rest of Europe, i.e. what is now labeled as a hard Brexit?

What the last few months have shown, is that a simple remain/leave referendum was a bad idea, since the manner of leaving was not clear. Paul Simon should write a new song, titled "50 ways to leave the EU" ... because with 50 options, there should at least be one that would satisfy the pro-Brexit camp enough that they could gather around it.
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I partly understood that, but it would be easier to include a quote from that post then. But never mind, no harm done.

I don't think your post really answered my question either, but I think it has been answered in the thread now - and confirming my impression that the Leave voters did not all support one and the same idea of how to leave.
 
Sovereignty is an outdated concept when compared to megastates like the US, China, and India, imo. Hey it's nice but in reality none of these countries are that different from the others. One can still be Irish and be European. But I expect it would take about a hundred years to move into an actual federated state, as I have previously said. The real place of opportunity is integration of the militaries (already beginning) and trade (basically where the EU started). The rest will come if people decide it should.
 
LooseCannon said:
Sovereignty is an outdated concept when compared to megastates like the US, China, and India, imo. Hey it's nice but in reality none of these countries are that different from the others. One can still be Irish and be European.
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I'm not sure many Europeans will agree. European is not an identity, it's not much more than a geographical term.
 
Ariana said:
I'm not sure many Europeans will agree. European is not an identity, it's not much more than a geographical term.
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I understand that. Hence it will take at least a century to grow that concept. But it doesn't make it any more sensical, to me. No adoption of a European identity can make a Bulgarian less Bulgarian, nor a German less German.
 
LooseCannon said:
I understand that. Hence it will take at least a century to grow that concept. But it doesn't make it any more sensical, to me. No adoption of a European identity can make a Bulgarian less Bulgarian, nor a German less German.
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How would you define the concept of European identity?
 
GhostofCain said:
How would you define the concept of European identity?
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Like all identities, they mean whatever those participating in them want them to mean. I would think they would mean the greater concept of pan-European ideals. A common shared heritage, often violent, and a desire to band together to create a stronger continent.
 
LooseCannon said:
Like all identities, they mean whatever those participating in them want them to mean. I would think they would mean the greater concept of pan-European ideals. A common shared heritage, often violent, and a desire to band together to create a stronger continent.
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You've been listening to too much Atlantean Kodex.
 
Perun said:
Not possible.
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LooseCannon said:
Regional and even national identities are possible inside a nation-state. The USA and Canada prove that every day.
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The USA and Canada are only a couple of centuries old. The cultures in Europe go back way further than that which, as a history nerd, I'm sure you're aware of.
 
Black Wizard said:
The USA and Canada are only a couple of centuries old. The cultures in Europe go back way further than that which, as a history nerd, I'm sure you're aware of.
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Our cultures are much older than that in some sense; the French-English divide in Canada is an artifact of European identity, for example. But as a history nerd, I can assure you that the length of a culture's existence is irrelevant compared to the depth of passion the people feel about it. If Europeans decide to consider themselves European, then they can choose to do that. The alternative is a progressively weak set of independent nation-states with aged populations and no natural resources to speak of.
 
I don't think LC is asking for Europeans to give up their national identity, but to put it next to a common European identity. Mind you, seeing how young people from all over Europe meet and correspond all the time, I don't think that's a very tall order. I keep seeing people from Spain and Germany conversing about their own countries, but at the same time being quite harmonic. Hell, something like this is happening on our very board. I think a lot of young people nowadays are so accustomed to a united Europe that they wouldn't have a desire to have it otherwise. Nobody is asking you to give up being Spanish or Latvian, and I don't think anybody ever will, unless a new Hitler arises.
 
I think the issue with a national identity is it cannot be forced. Pre-World War II, I think most Americans related to their state as much as being an American, but WWII, the Cold War, and easier transportation across the US, and population migration is what got us thinking Americans first state second. But that all happened pretty much organically. The EU seems to be trying to force an identity and not shockingly there has been a ton of backlash.
 
The US's process started during the Civil War. Before the Civil War it was common to say "The United States are," and after it became "The United States is." This culminated in the Second World War, and I'd say Pearl Harbor specifically.

I agree that the process needs to happen organically, hence why I keep saying it can take a long time.
 
Aside from the national identity discussion, the EU Parliament is debating Brexit (surprisingly). A UKIP MEP told the Parliament that the EU has "done what Philip of Spain, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler couldn't do". You have brought Britain to its knees without firing a single shot."

However, others would say...


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