UK Politics

I assume some factors causing the economic problems will not change. This has to do with being outside the EU. Rules, lack of trust.


I feel sorry for the many well-meaning British who, due to criminally irresponsible politicians and a manipulated referendum, have found themselves in a situation that they have never wanted, but for which they will soon pay the price.
 
I assume some factors causing the economic problems will not change. This has to do with being outside the EU. Rules, lack of trust.

I do believe there will be an economic downturn for a couple of years, but in the long run, nobody has an interest in keeping it that way. There will be a new trade agreement with the EU. Neither the EU nor the UK have an interest in not having one; the UK is a huge market for labour, goods and services. It is a G7 country. Many EU countries will want to keep ties with the UK. Moeover, the UK can intensify its economic ties with North America, and whatever they cannot or will not import from the EU could be imported from there.

I agree that there will be economic damage to the UK; there will also be economic damage to the EU. But I'm just getting tired of apocalyptic prophecies. It never turns out that way.
 
Well, @Perun, traditionally economic contraction is difficult to overcome. S&P has projected a hard Brexit would cause a contraction of 8% in the UK economy. By comparison, the impact of the Great Depression in the UK was 5% contraction, the Great Recession was closer to 7%. So you'd be talking about another Great Recession-level event, and you can make a pretty strong argument that the UK still hasn't recovered from the Great Recession. Soft Brexit won't be so bad, mind you, but still a few points of contraction would suck significantly.

When it comes to goods scarcity, in a soft Brexit I expect there will be precious little interruption in trade flow, and goods that come in from outside the UK will be quickly rerouted via the new trade protocols. I think some of the goods people are stockpiling will actually have a supply surplus due to increase in price, so there'll be some market fluctuation on currently common goods. Where I anticipate significant impacts are to the UK manufacturing sector - quite simply, places that make parts in the UK for Europe, or rely on Europe to make parts for finished goods. The UK has far more of the former than the latter, and that's where I expect to see major trade interruption and loss of work.
 
This is not taking into account though that even with a Hard Brexit, there will likely be a free trade agreement with the EU within the next five years or so. As I said, this is not just something the UK needs, but also something the EU wants. There are 27 EU countries all of which have business ties with a highly developed, 50+ million population. Nobody would benefit from locking out the UK for good.
 
I really don't think so. Negotiating a free trade agreement with the EU is hard, because of EU rules giving regions vetos and stuff. Look at how long Canada has been trying to negotiate with the EU for free trade - negotiations were announced in 2008, concluded in 2014, and we are waiting on more than half the member states to ratify.

I don't believe the UK would be any faster due to bad blood and due to various national interests. It's really hard.
 
The difference though (versus Canada) is this, these are the UK imports in 2018 by country. It would be interesting to see what goods these comprise of, but many EU countries here would be hit pretty hard by losing that revenue and I am guessing China, the US, Japan, etc would be more than happy to fill that void. It is a two way street

Value Year
Germany $89.23B 2017
China $59.78B 2017
United States $58.75B 2017
Netherlands $51.77B 2017
France $36.38B 2017
Belgium $32.10B 2017
Italy $24.86B 2017
Norway $23.14B 2017
Spain $20.16B 2017
Ireland $18.80B 2017
Canada $14.85B 2017
Poland $13.57B 2017
Japan $13.09B 2017
Switzerland $11.97B 2017
Turkey $9.98B 2017
India $9.17B 2017
Sweden $9.01B 2017
South Africa $8.37B 2017
Czech Republic $7.27B 2017
Russia $7.22B 2017
Denmark $6.45B 2017
Vietnam $5.41B 2017
Hong Kong $5.35B 2017
South Korea $5.30B 2017
 
I'm not sure. The UK has been in the EU for forty years, their entire economical and political system has been designed in a way that it complies with EU standards and a free trade agreement would be meant to restore what had previously existed rather than figuring everything out on a blank canvas. Assuming not everybody involved is a sulky five-year-old, the possibility to have an agreement in short time is there.
The wild card isn't the UK - it's the question whether France will still have a pro-EU leadership in five year's time, whether Italy will have caused a new financial crisis, and whether there will be much solidarity left among EU states. There is the possibility that the UK might actually be better off outside the EU if another major crisis hits.
 
Well, that's a huge gap to fill, and although US and Chinese goods tend to be expansive, replacing $90B from Germany alone would be a tall order to ramp up rapidly.

I'm not sure. The UK has been in the EU for forty years, their entire economical and political system has been designed in a way that it complies with EU standards and a free trade agreement would be meant to restore what had previously existed rather than figuring everything out on a blank canvas. Assuming not everybody involved is a sulky five-year-old, the possibility to have an agreement in short time is there.
And there's also the possibility that areas attempting to develop various economic sectors will reject the UK for the sole purpose of wanting to grow their own areas rather than re-integrate the UK. It only takes 1.
 
whether Italy will have caused a new financial crisis, and whether there will be much solidarity left among EU states. There is the possibility that the UK might actually be better off outside the EU if another major crisis hits.

Given Italy exports a little over 5% of it's exports to the UK and their economy is teetering on the edge of crisis as it is, that would be enough to push it over the edge if it lost that trade avenue.
 
Well, that's a huge gap to fill, and although US and Chinese goods tend to be expansive, replacing $90B from Germany alone would be a tall order to ramp up rapidly.

That is where it would be interested to see what goods comprise that $90B ...for things like cars, Japan, South Korea, and the US make plenty of those for example .. and of course the UK makes them as well versus what products Germany makes that no one else makes in sufficient quantity at a sufficient cost
 
And there's also the possibility that areas attempting to develop various economic sectors will reject the UK for the sole purpose of wanting to grow their own areas rather than re-integrate the UK. It only takes 1.

I can't see this happening. Which country would that be? France, Italy and Spain are all at the risk of falling apart if they don't adopt rabidly anti-EU policies. Germany knows that it shouldn't become bigger in the EU than it already is. The Dutch are an economic powerhouse, but don't have the sort of growth potential to replace the UK. Poland already basically wants out of the EU. All other countries are just too small to play this sort of role.
 
All other countries are just too small to play this sort of role.
Untrue. Wallonia and Milan held up CETA for years. If small regions of major countries can do it, there's nothing from stopping Lithuania from saying "Hey, we could get a new factory here if the UK isn't part of the free trade zone" etc.
 
Negotiating a free trade agreement with the EU is hard.
That's what I thought as well. The UK cannot only have benefits without carrying the burdens. The EU costs something, the EU delivers something.
Stepping out of the EU, resulting (within some years) only in good things in relation to the EU, that would be very strange.
France, Italy and Spain are all at the risk of falling apart if they don't adopt rabidly anti-EU policies.
I might have missed something but this sounds like a less probable apocalyptic prophecy.
 
I might have missed something but this sounds like a less probable apocalyptic prophecy.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...idUSKCN1QG1GF?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

However, the EU executive arm, whose job is to analyze the economic performance of each of the EU’s 28 countries and warn of trouble ahead, said it would wait until it receives Italy’s reform program in April before taking action.

“Italy is experiencing excessive imbalances. High government debt and protracted weak productivity dynamics imply risks with cross-border relevance, in a context of still high level of non-performing loans and high unemployment,” the Commission said.

Last year, Italy narrowly escaped an EU disciplinary procedure over its very high public debt, which under EU rules should be falling every year.

In an unprecedented standoff, the Commission rejected in October the initial 2019 draft budget of Italy’s ruling eurosceptic and populist coalition, which would have raised borrowing to cover election promises.

Rome and the Commission eventually reached a compromise over the deficit but it was based on an economic growth forecast of 1.2 percent. In February, the Commission revised that down to 0.2 percent.

“The government debt ratio is not expected to decline in the coming years, as the weak macroeconomic outlook and the government’s current fiscal plans, though less expansionary than its initial plans for 2019, will entail a deterioration of the primary surplus,” it said.
 
I might have missed something but this sounds like a less probable apocalyptic prophecy.
This is an interesting article by George Soros for The Guardian which compares the current state of the European Union to the final days of the Soviet Union. He predicts a rise in popularity for the right wing anti-EU parties in the forthcoming EU Parliament elections in May and highlights some of the problems faced by the mainstream pro-EU parties in Italy and Germany due to the recent migrant crisis.

Are there dark times ahead for any lovers of a federal Europe among us?
@Forostar
 
I might have missed something but this sounds like a less probable apocalyptic prophecy.

I meant it more figuratively, in the sense of parliament gridlocks, street protests and strikes, public bankruptcy, etc.
 
Right anti-EU-wing continues to be on the rise in several countries. If they can get a majority in parlaments it will be become more and more problematic.

There also seems to be another movement. Left wing/climate/green increases as well in some nations. The marches and protests continue. More collaboration and political will is needed. Hopefully people will vote for parties that think further than for their own short term sake.
 
Voting has started. Exciting next 28 minutes. :dancinggeek:

About 20 Conservative MPs who voted against the deal on January have said they'll now vote for the deal, but the PM needs 116 MPs to change their mind. Not going to happen.
 
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