The problem with playing SIT songs live - A tabu?

nuno_c

nuno_c

A hollow universe in space
The reason for Maiden not playing many SIT songs live seems to be the inability to reproduce their sound onstage.

I don't get it. I mean, i would say SSOASS would be way harder to reproduce live considering the synth-heavy sound it has.

Sure, SIT has a lot of guitar synth, but i don't really see that as a big issue, or even an issue for that matter.

Do you guys know if there's something i'm missing out in terms of the reasons for this record being so difficult to reproduce live? Are there any other reasons? Also, if the record's sound is, indeed, the only issue, why is that?

Thank you in advance!
 
I honestly think that some of the most difficult stuff Maiden has done, is on Somewhere in Time. There's a lot of fast and sensitive stuff going on. Fast breaks and changes. Long fast parts, taking some stamina. Some of Nicko's best performances were caught on this record. The playing is very fluid. Precise but not robotic. A feast for the ears. There are subtle, fragile melodies, which indeed might be difficult to reproduce live. The band would really need to work hard to do that. Instead, I think they rather work hard at performing new songs very well, and when it comes to old stuff, it's easier to do stuff they know better. And: they haven't touched the stuff for such a long time, that they might have forgotten about this material. And even if they haven't, it would be odd for them to "suddenly" come back with an old rare song, especially when it never was on any official release, apart from the album. Alright, CSIT had some exposure on 12 Wasted Years, but that's it (on this release, I think they even used a studio version for the sound; man they really fucked up in every possible way to promote this album or tour). The fanbase only whines about Alexander the Great, so the rest won't even be an issue.

I am 100% sure we'll see Alexander the Great before they call it quits (probably during some special event with orchestra and/or on their farewell tour), but the rest (bar Wasted Years and Heaven Can Wait) will probably have their last stamp in live performances of the past:
- 1999 (Stranger in a Strange Land)
- 1987 (Caught Somewhere in Time, Sea of Madness)
- 1986 (The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner)
or on the album itself (Deja-Vu).

edit:
This is probably the best cover version (of a whole band) of Caught Somewhere in Time. The singer is not that great, but the drums sound very, very good. Outstanding actually.
 
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Forostar said:
I honestly think that some of the most difficult stuff Maiden has done, is on Somewhere in Time. There's a lot of fast and sensitive stuff going on. Some of Nicko's best performances were caught on this record. The playing is very fluid. Precise but not robotic. A feast for the ears. There are subtle, fragile melodies, which indeed might be difficult to reproduce live. The band would really need to work hard to do that. Instead, I think they rather work hard at performing new songs very well, and when it comes to old stuff, it's easier to do stuff they know better. And: they haven't touched the stuff for such a long time, that they've even forgotten about it. And even if they haven't, it would be odd for them to "suddenly" come back with it. The fanbase only whines about Alexander the Great, so the rest won't even be an issue.

I am 100% sure we'll see Alexander the Great before they call it quits (probably during some special event with orchestra and/or on their farewell tour), but the rest (bar Wasted Years and Heaven Can Wait) will probably have their last stamp in live performances of the past:
- 1999 (Stranger in a Strange Land)
- 1987 (Caught Somewhere in Time, Sea of Madness)
- 1986 (The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner)
or on the album itself (Deja-Vu).
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First of all, thank you for the very thoughtful answer ;)

But still, and although i 100% agree that this album is a huge (like you said) feast for the ears, don't you think an album like SSOASS would be harder for them to reproduce live?
 
I think some songs are a little more static in their changes, but also in playing. Infinite Dreams is an exception for some odd tempo changes. Seventh Son is hard as well because it takes a lot of concentration. But there's more time for control, because the tempo is slower in the hard (atmospheric) parts.

Sea of Madness has a combination of this intense rhytmic playing and subtle mid piece you won't find anywhere else in the catalogue. CSIT is rhythmically very hard. Fast notes and bassdrums for a lengthy time. Loneliness is hard as well with lengthy fast drumming parts. It also has fast tempo and rhythm changes. The chorus would be hard as well. They dropped it after one or two gigs. I bet because it was just too difficult to do well.

No disrespect for Seventh Son, but most songs Maiden did live are easier than the ones that were done from SIT. Less (difficult) fragile moments, less intense breaks/changes. Again: Infinite Dreams might be tricky. I really hope they'll consider it again.
 
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Forostar said:
I think some songs are a little more static in their changes, but also in playing. Infinite Dreams is an exception for some odd rhythm changes. Seventh Son is hard as well because it takes a lot of concentration. But there's more time for control, because the tempo is slower in the hard (atmospheric) parts.

Sea of Madness has a combination of this intense rhytmic playing and subtle mid piece you won't find anywhere else in the catalogue. CSIT is rhythmically very hard. Fast notes and bassdrums for a lengthy time. Loneliness is hard as well with lengthy fast drumming parts. It also has fast tempo and rhythm changes. The chorus would be hard as well. They dropped it after one or two gigs. I bet because it was just too difficult to do well.

No disrespect for Seventh Son, but most songs Maiden did live are easier than the ones that were done from SIT. Less (difficult) fragile moments, less intense breaks/changes. Again: Infinite Dreams might be tricky. I really hope they'll consider it again.
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Do you know any quality/worth seeing video performance of CSIT live?
 
My answer might sound naive but maybe if SiT is not much represented, it is because it is not that great an album, more than because some parts would be difficult to play (apart from the "clean" break in "Alexander the Great", there is no way any song from SiT is as difficult to play as, say, "Genghis Khan" among others - I can speak as a decent guitar player here).

"Wasted Years" and "Heaven Can Wait" aside, most songs are marred by either poor vocal melodies ("CSIT", "LOTLDR", "Déjà Vu") or music that doesn't really fit Maiden as well as the songs we call "classics" - e.g the other two Smith-penned SiT songs.

To return on the fact that SiT might be overrated these days (let's say since the reunion), I remember that in the written press (Hard Rock Magazine, Hard N' Heavy...), this album -though liked- was reproached too many of (I quote) "heads down and I'll see you at the end" moments. Once again, I find it a very good album for a burnt-out band that have deserved one more year break to refuel their inspiration though.
 
Genghis Khan was never done with Nicko. I don't think anyone will say it's easy. Probably some of the most challenging songs for sure. Unfortunately I've never seen a live video of it.
 
I imagine it's a combination of what Black Bart and Foro said, as well as it being hard to reproduce that material live. I've never heard a live performance of any of those songs that did justice to the originals. And I'm not sure how aware they are of the fanbase for SIT. They probably don't see it as one of their better albums, unfortunately.

And I've said it before, but the challenge in performing Maiden is in the group rather than any individual instruments. Some of their rhythmic stuff is very precise. Especially with 3 guitarists, it can't be easy keeping everyone locked in. This gets harder when tempo changes get involved and SIT has a lot of them.
 
What's also unique about Somewhere in Time:

The bass and drums were recorded in Nassau, Bahamas. The guitars and vocals were done in Hilversum, Netherlands. Two different recording projects in which the band was split-up in delivering the goods. Alright, I guess that recording bass and drums -seperately from the rest- was done before, but two locations must have caused some extra difference in band focus. On top of that, it's the only album on which no Bruce ideas have landed (he got no credits on Beast, but he probably co-wrote some songs).

In a way, you can say that this album was one of the least "band"albums they ever did. I am beginning to understand more and more why the recent documentary wasn't satisfying for me (and many others). Looking back, the band themselves (as a collective unit) are probably not that enthousiastic about the process. We got a few individual stories (Tom Jones listening to the album in a NY hotel was about the most interesting thing they could tell us), but overall, I missed warmth in telling the story. I missed love for that album.

This can have impact on setlists in later years as well. Iced Earth's Jon Schaffer talks bitter about Burnt Offerings, because of all kinds of problems that happened around the recordings. Many fans love it, but they need to live with the fact that none or a maximum of one song is in the setlist over the last 15 years, or so.
I really think this is not entirely about just not liking the material; I guess it's also about preferring to do things that have more positivity attached to it.
 
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Forostar said:
What's also unique about Somewhere in Time:

The bass and drums were recorded in Nassau, Bahamas. The guitars and vocals were done in Hilversum, Netherlands. Two different recording projects in which the band was split-up in delivering the goods. Alright, I guess that recording bass and drums -seperately from the rest- was done before, but two locations must have caused some extra difference in band focus. On top of that, it's the only album on which no Bruce ideas have landed (he got no credits on Beast, but he probably co-wrote some songs).

In a way, you can say that this album was one of the least "band"albums they ever did. I am beginning to understand more and more why the recent documentary wasn't satisfying for me (and many others). Looking back, the band themselves (as a collective unit) are probably not that enthousiastic about the process. We got a few individual stories (Tom Jones listening to the album in a NY hotel was about the most interesting thing they could tell us), but overall, I missed warmth in telling the story. I missed love for that album.

This can have impact on setlists in later years as well. Iced Earth's Jon Schaffer talks bitter about Burnt Offerings, because of all kinds of problems that happened around the recordings. Many fans love it, but they need to live with the fact that none or a maximum of one song is in the setlist over the last 15 years, or so.
I really think this is not entirely about just not liking the material; I guess it's also about preferring to do things that have more positivity attached to it.
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Yeah i've been thinking about this more and more too. There was definetly some "bad" vibes within the band around SIT's recording (i mean bad vibes in the sense of the album not being so much a collaborative effort and, most of all, the fact that they were all so burned out from massive Powerlsve tour).

And artist's sentimental attachment to it's work can indeed change their whole approach towards it :(

At the same time, Maiden should really realize how good of an album SIT really is, you know?
 
Mosh said:
I imagine it's a combination of what Black Bart and Foro said, as well as it being hard to reproduce that material live. I've never heard a live performance of any of those songs that did justice to the originals. And I'm not sure how aware they are of the fanbase for SIT. They probably don't see it as one of their better albums, unfortunately.

And I've said it before, but the challenge in performing Maiden is in the group rather than any individual instruments. Some of their rhythmic stuff is very precise. Especially with 3 guitarists, it can't be easy keeping everyone locked in. This gets harder when tempo changes get involved and SIT has a lot of them.
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I agree with the issue of the tempo changes, although they happen more and more with Maiden, so at the same i don't reeeeeeeally see it as being that big of an issue, although it could be.

But you say you've never seen a live performance of any of those songs that did justice to the originals... Are you including Wasted Years and Heaven Can Wait? I'd say that those songs have indeed been played VERY well live :eek:

But yeah, i do hope Maiden start seeing the album for what it REALLY is, instead of (apparently) being overly attached to their emotional side towards it (considering what they were going through at the time). Adrian seems to love the album and speaks highly of it, though... :cool:
 
Forostar said:
I really think this is not entirely about just not liking the material; I guess it's also about preferring to do things that have more positivity attached to it.
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I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I bet a big reason why they don't like the material is because they don't have positive associations with it. I imagine if I was Bruce Dickinson, the last Iron Maiden album I'd go out of my way to listen to would probably be Somewhere in Time. They've probably got more positive associations with Wasted Years and (to a lesser extent) Heaven Can Wait just because they've played them live so much and probably think of all the great live performances of it, rather than the actual recording/original tour.
 
I think Mosh and Foro are on the right track: the band does not have fond memories of the material (except for the frequently played songs) AND they are rather difficult to perform (especially for Bruce, who never shined on these tracks in a live setting anyway).
 
I would argue that Bruce's performance on the album isn't particularly good either and a lot of it is saved by processing with all the heavy reverb and such. Easily the weak link there.
 
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