The J.R.R. Tolkien Topic (publications and adaptations)

LooseCannon said:
Don't be a pedant. You know what I mean.
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I actually didn't; but I'll stick to being only a pedant with Foro. Does that sound fair? :p
Forostar said:
Okay, I guess no one saw that. :)
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::)
Forostar said:
I read The Hobbit and LOTR somewhere around 1988-1989.
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Same here for H; read LotRs in the early nineties.
Forostar said:
I think anything be avoided. One can choose to be a hermit if something is important enough to avoid. Apparently Mosh didn't find it important, either no one warned him about the risk. Although, people talk about Tolkien for years on this forum, and I am sure the advice to first read is ancient, as is Mosh's presence around here. ;)

Okay, trailers in cinema's are hard to avoid (still, eyes can be closed during a trailer), I give you that. But it's going to be hard to take in a trailer and let this dominate all Tolkien's descriptions.
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Are you honestly trying to say that any normal media exposed teen today isn't going to have seen some screen element of Jackson's films; some sketch referencing Gollum (all this stuff is referencing the films, not the books); some advert online or on TV? I know you didn't know who Emma Watson was, but come on!...

Okay, address some of this Foro:
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
I think this all comes down to one central point. If you have two versions of something (& I'm not going to load this with claims that one is superior to the other), do you guys not care about what one came first? Do you not care whether one was truly original & one was simply a re-hash of the first? Do you not think differentiating between these two is even slightly important? You guys give the impression of not caring about where ideas comes from.
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Think about Hallowed. Now that you know elements were taken from that other track (I don't even know who it's copied from, I didn't listen to it), does this not change you view of Harris' writing ability?; does this change your actual view of the track itself?; does this even change your enjoyment of it? i.e. the genesis of the song (the original ideas behind it; accepting in this example, that they are not Steve's) matters, does it not? And this is important in how you view Steve Harris as a writer (in respect to this song), yes/no? I mean, if Steve Harris has credited the original songwriter, this would make a difference, would it not? A difference in respect to your view of Harris; but would it effect your view of the song itself?

Is this not all equally as applicable to literature & adaptations. Do you not see the parallels?
 
I see the parallels and yes, anno 2016 it's not easy to escape media hype:

But I don't think all "normal media exposed teens" of today are the type of teens who read Tolkien. I am not sure what is normal in relation to having the sense to read Tolkien first before you see it, but I think that teens with a strong sense of awareness and/or teens who listen well to family or friends being into (fantasy)literary or anyone else, who convincingly can tell teens that reading such a work first is a good idea, have a chance.
Information, education (knowledge) and love for reading is important to realize and do this.
 
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Forostar said:
But I don't think all "normal media exposed teens" of today is the type of teens who read Tolkien. I am not sure what is normal in relation to having the sense to read Tolkien first before you see it, but I think that teens with a strong sense of awareness and/or teens who listen well to family or friends being into (fantasy)literary or anyone else, who convincingly can tell teens that reading such a work first is a good idea, have a chance.
Information, education (knowledge) and love for reading is important to realize and do this.
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I don't want to labour this point, because I don't think it's massively important; but you're very much focusing on how they might, or might not, be exposed to reading the books. There is no denying the people around you will influence whether this book is lovingly shoved in front of you or not; but none of this has anything to do with whether or not they've already been exposed to film imagery. Unless of course they don't consume any other media, where this exposure is inevitable.
 
Foro, I totally except the idea than one can have the idea of read before you see (in respect to Tolkien; or any other author) instilled in you by, for example, your parents. And in that instance one could seek out the books & purposely avoid film imagery. My point was only that instilling your love for the books in someone else on its own is not going to be enough.

But let's leave this point, what about Hallowed? As you would say, answer my questions! :ok:
 
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Think about Hallowed. Now that you know elements were taken from that other track (I don't even know who it's copied from, I didn't listen to it), does this not change you view of Harris' writing ability?
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Not his complete ability. He still wrote so many other great songs. But it changed my view on Hallowed and on Harris (or Maiden/Rod Smallwood), being dishonest in the credit department.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
; does this change your actual view of the track itself?;
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A little bit yes.
edit: o wait, you mean the Beckett track, or the Harris track?
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
does this even change your enjoyment of it?
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Not a bit when being present at a live concert. And when I do not think about it, it hardly does change anything at home as well. What plays a role is that the unoriginal bit is a lyric bit, sung with an original and awesome vocal melody, over awesome music.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
i.e. the genesis of the song (the original ideas behind it; accepting in this example, that they are not Steve's) matters, does it not? And this is important in how you view Steve Harris as a writer (in respect to this song), yes/no? I mean, if Steve Harris has credited the original songwriter, this would make a difference, would it not? A difference in respect to your view of Harris; but would it effect your view of the song itself?
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I think I was a bit eager by answering these questions earlier (above). Please say so, if it is not the case.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft said:
Is this not all equally as applicable to literature & adaptations. Do you not see the parallels?
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It is not equally as applicable. Now that I've read and answered these questions, I see the differences!

The situation as it really happened (in my eyes):
Hallowed contains an uncredited passage from another song from another band.
The Lord of the Rings and Hobbit films are credited to Tolkien as being the author of the novel. I have respect for both works, I enjoy both works, mainly because I see them as different things. I can separate them. The books are (way) more perfect, but it is cool to literally see action in a film. And it looks beautiful. I am glad the impact of these books, during my first reading, had so much power that the Jackson films do not interfere much with the imagery if I re-read the books. Jackson's shaped world comes second. It pops up when I think of him, his films and his actors, it goes to the background when I dive into a Tolkien book.

Now the what if situation:
Hallowed contains a passage from another song from another band and credit is given accordingly. Is your point that Hallowed is now the adaption? And the Beckett song and the people who have always cared so much about it, are the "victims"?

But Hallowed is so much more than these couple of lines. If there was a credit, the original artists might have been flattered!

Still, I do not see that much of a parallel, because the difference with the Tolkien adaption is bigger: it lead to a film. A film satisfies something else than how reading a book is satisfying. Not sure how to put it into words but literature and cinema can work in different manners when entering the human mind and emotions. Maybe not often, but it sure worked different for me, in the case of Tolkien.
 
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Hmm, maybe Hallowed was a poor example, since I didn't actually listen to the Beckett track or know what part had been used. I only read your response, which seemed to be quite negative. I had in mind that the idea of authorship was perhaps relevant & interesting with the Beckett/Maiden example. Maybe not. Maybe a good cover version of something would have been a better example...
 
The other night I went to the Tron Theatre, in Glasgow, to watch a one-man adaptation/presentation of J. R. R. Tolkien's Leaf By Niggle; probably Tolkien's most transparently autobiographical work. Since it was essentially a straight reading of the text, it was very good. Hung around afterwords for a Q&A with the actor, director & producer. Quite a lot of Americans in the audience.

http://www.tron.co.uk/event/leaf-by-niggle/
 
Watched the first of three discs of the Appendices of the making of the Extended Edition of Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug. Had NO idea what the actors who play the Dwarfs went through filming that movie:

1. in the barrels in an actual river. The actor who played the fattest Dwarf (due to his body suit) was weighed when leaving the water. Due to his costume being wet, he weight in at about 350-400 lbs! Had to be pulled out of the barrel and carried out of river by a group of guys.
2. then in the barrels again this time in a man-made round river in the studio which was sped up faster each of the five days of filming. Remember, Biblo was not in the barrel; he was floating along. This meant the water that the other actors were floating in (and using the restroom in) is what Bilbo stayed in for five days.
3. then in barrels made with no bottom but with wheels to move around on the ground (to be later moved to water scene via CG)

Also wrapped up like shrink wrap for the spider cocoon scene for quite a while. It was NOT acting when they broke free of the webbing.

Let's not forget the shot hiding in the barrels on a ship while covered in fish. The fish were real dead fish, not fake. (insert a smiley vomiting)

Beautiful shots of New Zealand and Hobbitown. Too bad it was damaged by fire during the recent earthquake.
 
I wish they'd made more of the spider scene, as one of the key moments of Bilbo proving his worth. Mind you, I'm not sure how they'd go about explaining little features like the offensive use of word 'attercop' around spiders.
 
Just watched the 3 Hobbit films (extended editions) followed by the 3 LOTR films (extended editions). I saw all the films in the theater but prefer the extended editions. The Fellowship of the Ring was always my favorite, but I admit I had forgotten how much I enjoyed Return of the King. Some say it won Best Picture as the Academy's way of showing their appreciation of all 3 films but I do not agree. The Academy has awarded Best Picture to the most emotional of the films. Some don't like that much emotion in the Tolkien films and others did not care for the many endings ROTK had but I feel the film ended exactly as it should and left nothing unresolved.

Why was TFOTR my favorite at first? Because I saw the animated film in 1977 in the theater as a boy and it drew me into the world of Tolkien. I had the movie program which listed all the characters and their histories and information. I reread that program many times as a youth. Loved that film. So when I saw Peter Jackson's film, it really hit home (especially the end).

As far as the Hobbit films go, I enjoyed the LOTR films more but I still love the Hobbit films. Although, when Sauromon says "Leave Sauron to me", I do wish we could have seen Sauromon confront and be turned by Sauron.
 
When I watched TFOTR after seeing the Hobbit films, I finally noticed the references in Fellowship made about the Hobbit story:

1. Bilbo telling the children the story of his escaping the Trolls.
2. Sam finds them and says to an ailing Frodo "Look Mr. Frodo! It's Mr. Bilbo's trolls!"
3. The mithril given to Frodo by Bilbo
4. Bilbo saying he was ready for "another" adventure
5. The Ring Bilbo does not want to let go of.

More of course, but that is what I remember for now...
 
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