The Ides Of March - Early recording?

Forostar said:
@Luisma @srfc @Magnus

Another possibility:

From album page on wiki:

Before the sessions with Malone, the band made two attempts in December 1979 with two different producers while still a four-piece.[3] Guy Edwards, the first, was dismissed as the band were unhappy with the "muddy" quality in his production,[3] while Andy Scott was sacked after insisting that Harris play his bass with a pick rather than his fingers.[5]

So if that is correct, Maiden was in the studio three times after Muthas&BBC and before the appearance of the studio version! Still think it is the album session, if we believe Clive is on it. He never played in Maiden with a four piece. That was Sampson.
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After some talks with other people I have almost discarded that the mystery version of The Ides Of March was recorded on the Metal For Muthas session. Now, taking into consideration what you are saying @Forostar , let me say this. We know that Burning Ambition (B-Side for Running Free single) and Running Free (from Axe Attack album) come from a recording session Maiden did with Gary Edwards (November 25 & 26, 1979) Lineup: Di'Anno, Harris, Murray and Sampson, nothing else, that I know of, was recorded then or has not come to light, which means that the mystery version could come from this session.

The sessions with Andy Scott (December 1979 (does anybody know for sure the dates for this sessions?) ended up being a complete waste of time in which they only tried to improve some recordings they already had (Running Free) because they wanted to make the drums sound better.

"Oh yeah, a long time ago. Well, the first thing that was, I suppose fairly successful, was a thing called 'Running Free'. And they had a demo of it with the original drummer. And Clive Burr had just joined the group and it was only Paul Di'Anno's 2nd song or something. So they came to me with an idea of just re-recording the drums, cause the drums didn't sound very good." (Andy Scott interview – The Iron Maiden Scandinavia FC Webpage - 1991)

To my knowledge nothing came out of it, but the mystery version could have been recorded or re-recorded with Clive on this sessions.

As you pointed out, the bootleg from Wakefield Unity Hall, February 7, 1980, has the mystery version played as an intro tape.

Maiden recorded their debut album, according to my research between February 13 – 29, 1980, so the mystery version of The Ides Of March could come either from the sessions made with Gary Edwards or is the only thing that survived from the Andy Scott sessions.
 
Could you elaborate on that research?
Maiden started recording in January and finished work/mixing in February. Source: official biography.

Ides could have been recorded in January and may well have preceded the final mix session. If decided that it would not land on the album, then it did not have to be part of that final mix. It could be used for something else, namely concert intros.
 
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Running Free was released on the 8th of February (date from wiki so apologies if it's wrong) and that is the same version as the album, also on darthryas maiden gig master list that I've posted earlier in the thread there's gigs cancelled from the 13th Feb through to the 2nd March, which correspond to the album recording dates that Luisma has posted. They aren't gigging at all in January 1980, so I think maybe they must have been in the studio then as well to record the single/album version of Running Free then if it was released on the 8th of Feb.

Also, the single version is definitely not a tidied up version of the Axe Attack Guy Edwards version, 1) I'm not sure how you could record new drums without needing to re-record everything? and 2) they melody guitars in the instrumental section are a bit different then the album version, some phrases slightly different, parts in a lower octave and 3) I'm fairly sure it's only Dave Murray playing as there's only one rhythm guitar during the verse with another overdubbed in the chorus.

EDIT: https://www.officialcharts.com/search/singles/running-free/ has the date as 23 Feb but this could be the date it charted rather than it's release date
 
Forostar said:
Could you elaborate on that research?
Maiden started recording in January and finished work/mixing in February. Source: official biography.

Ides could have been recorded in January and may well have preceded the final mix session. If decided that it would not land on the album, then it did not have to be part of that final mix. It could be used for something else, namely concert intros.
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Let me start by saying this... Official biography is full of errors! Different sources point out that the recording of the debut album actually took place in February, the most notable one is the publication of Sounds Magazine, dated February 2, 1980 that informs that the band had to cancel all gigs from February 13 onwards in order to record the album.

Addional info on the dates of the recording of the album, come from Loopy who said in an interview that according to his diary notes, "Maiden recorded the single 'Running Free' at Morgan Studio's on Saturday 19th and Sunday 20th, January 1980, at least four weeks before the rest of the album." The last fact that has to be considered is that Maiden did play the dates between February 1 to 11 so there's no way Maiden could have been in the studio and played those gigs in 1980.

Now, returning to the mystery version of Ides, once again we must take into consideration that on the bootleg from Wakefield Unity Hall, February 7, 1980, the mystery version is played as an intro tape, so it had to be recorded earlier... Maybe, just maybe it could have been recorded on the same sessions that they recorded Running Free (Single Version) but this is highly unlikely since studio time had to be used wisely.

Answering @srfc the single version of Running Free is definitely not a tidied up version of Axe Attack, it is, as you point out a complete new version recorded between January 19 and 20th with the same lineup that recorded the debut album. What we hear in Axe Attack is Di'Anno, Harris, Dave & Doug (Line up that recorded Burning Ambition)
 
Luisma said:
The sessions with Andy Scott (December 1979 (does anybody know for sure the dates for this sessions?) ended up being a complete waste of time in which they only tried to improve some recordings they already had (Running Free) because they wanted to make the drums sound better.
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There was a mention on his wikipedia that just said he produced Iron Maiden, as a first sentence in production career paragraph. I've deleted that.
 
Luisma said:
but this is highly unlikely since studio time had to be used wisely.
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Not a strong argument since that can be used for every studio/recording facility visit (in the early days).

I don't think Maiden sat on their asses between 1 and 20 January(!).

Both Loopy and Sounds do not entirely conflict the possibility of January. Ides was not part of "the rest of the album".
 
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Zare said:
There was a mention on his wikipedia that just said he produced Iron Maiden, as a first sentence in production career paragraph. I've deleted that.
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However little or dissatisfying, he still did production work for the band Iron Maiden.
 
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Forostar said:
Not a strong argument since that can be used for every studio/recording facility visit (in the early days).

I don't think Maiden sat on their asses between 1 and 20 January(!).

Both Loopy and Sounds do not entirely conflict the possibility of January. Ides was not part of "the rest of the album".
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I was not trying to present a strong argument @Forostar . However, knowing the story of many bands & how they used they recording time in the early days, brings me to the conclusion that Maiden, who had to decide which songs they were going to record for the debut album, couldn't have decided to record something that wasn't going to be used for a Single... Is just not how things worked in those early days...

However, let's entertain your idea, that the mystery version of the Ides was recorded in January... Why there isn't any information about Maiden recording on those dates when ALL other early dates (Spaceward Studios, Manchester Square, BBC Studios & Wessex Studios) are known?
 
See my previous post, see the official biography. Yes the biography has errors and leaves out important things but why would they make a mistake here?

I guess people got confused by the fact that they had to return to the studio in February.
 
Forostar said:
Another sign of January:

http://www.ironmaidencommentary.com...01_ironmaiden&lang=eng&link=albums#interview1
5th question:

Two or three weeks after Stratton joined they hit the studio. I read that as: immediately after he joined they practised in a rehearsal studio and then after two or three weeks they recorded the album. That's January.
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Stratton joined Maiden in the last days of December (around the 20th), Maiden last gig of 1979 was played on December 22, 1979. Clive auditioned for Maiden in January and he had to learn the songs and rehearse. So let's say that Clive auditioned for Maiden on January 1st (he didn't). Now 2 or 3 weeks bring us to January 15 or January 22, which bring us close to the dates that Loopy says they used to record Running Free (Single Version). So what you're saying is that they recorded Running Free and The Ides Of March?
 
Forostar said:
See my previous post, see the official biography. Yes the biography has errors and leaves out important things but why would they make a mistake here?

I guess people got confused by the fact that they had to return to the studio in February.
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Well, now that you ask about mistakes, in the Early Days documentary it says that the debut album was recorded during December 1979 (Right at the beginning of the chapter titled
"You could pack your day job") so that's why I do not trust the "official statements" in a lot of things.
 
Interesting thread. Considering the cost of recording a song profesionally back then, the song was probably recorded at some of the sessions we know of. It is difficult to judge at which one from the quality of those bootlegs though.
 
Luisma said:
Stratton joined Maiden in the last days of December (around the 20th), Maiden last gig of 1979 was played on December 22, 1979. Clive auditioned for Maiden in January and he had to learn the songs and rehearse. So let's say that Clive auditioned for Maiden on January 1st (he didn't). Now 2 or 3 weeks bring us to January 15 or January 22, which bring us close to the dates that Loopy says they used to record Running Free (Single Version). So what you're saying is that they recorded Running Free and The Ides Of March?
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Let's interpret well what Stratton says. He does not solely speak of the songs you mention. He speaks as if it is the album session, mentioning Phantom.
 
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Forostar said:
Better interpret well what Stratton says.
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How do you understand what he says? To me is pretty clear they rehearsed at the Hollywood Studios and the move to record after that.

As @GhostofCain says, I believe the mystery version was either recorded at one of the sessions we know of (a very knowledgeable person is adamant that this isn't the case) or in between these dates, but not on the IM sessions.
 
It is more logical that Ides was recorded during the album session because they had more time. They could have done it with the purpose on mind: let's do the intro, we need that as a tape for the show. That was a simple, concrete result. They did not need to record Wrathchild at the album session. They wanted to play that live, and did not wish to use it for the album either. Therefore there did not have to be a Wratchchild studio version connection.

If they recorded it at Muthas it was used earlier. Too bad we miss bootlegs. Well, I think I gave you a shitload of logical reasons. Let it sink in.

I'll see if I can do more research as well.
 
Makes sense, only the most logical explanation (of anything) is not necessarily the correct one.
If I was on FB I'd have asked Doug already, just to limit the possibilities.
 
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