The Greatest Metal Song Cup - Part II, Round 4, Matches 82-87

[JudasMyGuide]

Wow, there's certainly a lot of "...but it's Rainbow!", "...but it's Judas Priest!", and "...but it's Deep Purple!" voting going on here...

Mate, you really think 10 people nominated Stargazer as one of the best metal tracks independently of one another because of "...but it's Rainbow"?

While I don’t doubt that some people genuinely enjoy these songs more than everything that’s come out since, I think a lot of people are handicapping them based on historical significance and aren’t actually doing a clear-headed comparison based on the raw musical merits.

Later songs may be standing on the shoulders of these songs, but that doesn’t mean that they’re unable to surpass them. I mean, it’s not like we’re all sitting around listening to Big Joe Turner and talking about how his best songs are untouchable classics that beat all rock songs of today.

“Stargazer” is merely good with some great parts, “Victim Of Changes” is kind of boring, and “Highway Star” can’t really stand up to any reasonably good driving metal song from the 80s or beyond, aside from that neoclassical solo. Take off the rose-colored headphones, people…!

I agree with you as far as that we should not give songs points or preference on historical importance (etc) alone, however I really don't think you should make this argument over comparing Purple's Mk2 era with Ted Nugent.

 

[Jer]

Mate, you really think 10 people nominated Stargazer as one of the best metal tracks independently of one another because of "...but it's Rainbow"?

I’d bet a fair number of folks were thinking “well, I’ve got to put a Rainbow track on there, so…”

Be honest — how often do you actually put Rainbow into your listening rotation vs. other more recent music?

 

[JudasMyGuide]

Be honest — how often do you actually put Rainbow into your listening rotation vs. other more recent music?

Me personally? Rather often, I absolutely love Blackmore back when he was still doing rock. He used to be my favourite guitarist ever, Made in Japan deluxe was one of the first CD originals I bought with my pocket money as a teenager and Rainbow's debut is among my favourite hard rock albums ever, ever since I first heard it some 16 years ago. Rocking, but incredibly catchy, atmospheric, consistent all over.

Unlike Zeppelin, for example, whom I've oversaturated myself with (and I can't stand Plant's voice nowadays, though the rhythm section is absolutely capital), Rainbow and Purple remained in my life pretty consistently.


EDIT: Also, I don't think of old and "recent" music - me and my family we listen to everything, from actual Medieval music to even hip hop and usually I tend to pick the stuff that's the best for what it sets out to do. The Allman Brothers Band, for example, take the Southern rock paradigm and infuse it with great improvisation, impeccable rhythm feel (you really need two drummers!) and a rather high-brow approach for such a band of rednecks. Might be old music, but me and wifey fell in love with them quite independently.

IMHO power metal had its golden era mostly in the 00s, Britpop in the 90s, hard rock generally in the 70s, I know there are some hard rock bands nowadays, but I've listened to Greta Van Fleet and Alter Bridge and I just couldn't help but dislike it quite a lot. Black Country Communion were good, but I don't know if they exist anymore. Just an example, but I don't see how Purple are in any way more boomer choice than Ted Nugent, to be frank.

 

[LooseCannon]

I mean I didn't listen to Stargazer until 2010, a solid...32 years after it came out, and it blew me away then. I don't think the merits have changed much in the last 12 years. I think it is a truly spectacular song. Victim of Changes wins against its opponent for me, and Highway Star is foundational and again, not against the strongest opponent.

Be honest — how often do you actually put Rainbow into your listening rotation vs. other more recent music?

Multiple Rainbow tracks are on my "Driving" playlist and I spin the first three albums at least once a year in their entirety.

 

[srfc]

I think the fatal flaw in your argument @Jer is most of the people here are from generations after these tracks, so they're not approaching these tracks with any prejudices in favour of them.

If anything when you see derivative stuff heavily nominated like Iced Earth, and even Prog metal and Power Metal which as whole genres are basically just the "standing on the shoulder's of giants" rehash at parody levels of the actual innovators in that type of music, then I think the opposite to your position is in far more evidence.

 

[Yax]

When I discovered Purple and Priest in 2005, I was blown away by Highway Star and Victim of Changes on their own merits, not because somebody else told me they were awesome, outstanding songs. I was just 15 and started buying records and concert DVDs and found out how great they were by listening to them. I discovered Priest through an MTV-like TV station doing an 80's metal videos night with 10 or so tracks, and they had Breaking the Law. I recorded it on VHS and was just playing it back and back over again, and after that bought Angel of Retribution and British Steel at the grocery store.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

I think the fatal flaw in your argument @Jer is most of the people here are from generations after these tracks, so they're not approaching these tracks with any prejudices in favour of them.

I suppose you could have such prejudices, even being from a younger generation - meaning that you're being told something is a classic and awesome and you accept it for yourself.

So yeah, reputation might be misleading, but I personally don't dare to judge how much of a "true fan" someone is or how much of a n00b blinded by prestige and stature.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

That said, I admit that as far as the fast tempo and frightfully awesome neoclassical instrumental break are concerned, we should have had Burn here instead of Highway Star.

 

[LooseCannon]

That said, I admit that as far as the fast tempo and frightfully awesome neoclassical instrumental break are concerned, we should have had Burn here instead of Highway Star.

Division 125 - The Red and the Black Division (I guess it's both the red and the black, depending on how burnt we get).

 

[Jer]

Me personally? Rather often, I absolutely love Blackmore back when he was still doing rock.

I mean I didn't listen to Stargazer until 2010, a solid...32 years after it came out, and it blew me away then. I don't think the merits have changed much in the last 12 years. I think it is a truly spectacular song.

OK, you two are legit. Good for you.

I think the fatal flaw in your argument @Jer is most of the people here are from generations after these tracks, so they're not approaching these tracks with any prejudices in favour of them.

It depends on how people got into the music in the first place. If it was through hearing an older relative play it, or by hearing something they liked and then searching around to find lists of who the supposed giants of the genre are and having it be one of the earliest things they're exposed to in that genre, then that's going to have outsized impact as well.

If someone listened to a bunch of metal, then got around to this stuff much later on and was still blown away by it, good for them. Like I said, I'm sure a fair number of people legitimately think this stuff is better on the merits. But there's also a lot of historical reverence and name recognition bias happening in the voting here, and to a lesser extent in the nominations. And there's a lot of "of course 'Stargazer' is one of the best metal tracks ever", like this is just taken for granted. That sort of groupthink has an impact too.

If anything when you see derivative stuff heavily nominated like Iced Earth, and even Prog metal and Power Metal which as whole genres are basically just the "standing on the shoulder's of giants" rehash at parody levels of the actual innovators in that type of music, then I think the opposite to your position is in far more evidence.

Everything is built on top of what came before, to some extent. Something that may have been groundbreaking for its time is almost guaranteed to eventually be eclipsed by people who were influenced by it, and at some point those advancements separate it enough from its influences that the influences sound tired and limited by comparison. Like I said, we don't all sit around singing the praises of Big Joe Turner, and yet without him we probably wouldn't have any of this music we listen to today.

I've said before that I have a hard time getting excited about most rock music before about 1976 unless it's truly exceptional, because it's generally slower and simpler and less heavy than the stuff that really grabs me. That's clearly not the case for a lot of other people, and that's fine -- but the notion that some of this stuff is just obviously superior to everything that came afterward is silly.

 

[srfc]

but the notion that some of this stuff is just obviously superior to everything that came afterward is silly.

Agreed, but the notion that someone that plays someone elses idea a bit faster or with a few more notes is therefore better than actually having an original idea yourself is equally silly, and it basically reduces music down to a paint by numbers AI level if technical ability and speed and recording techniques are all that matters.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, we're probably going back to the point @Mosh made at the beginning of the game about the good stuff transcending the mediocre

 

[Jer]

Agreed, but the notion that someone that plays someone elses idea a bit faster or with a few more notes is therefore better than actually having an original idea yourself is equally silly

Yes, that would also be silly, but it's also not an idea that I ever put forth.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

While I don’t doubt that some people genuinely enjoy these songs more than everything that’s come out since, I think a lot of people are handicapping them based on historical significance and aren’t actually doing a clear-headed comparison based on the raw musical merits.

But, ultimately, we're not all sitting in here claiming that these songs are better "than everything that's come out since." We're arguing that these songs are better than Grand Magus, Dark Funeral, and fucking Cat Scratch Fever (which, by the way, is equally revered by many people as being as classic as the others).

Later songs may be standing on the shoulders of these songs, but that doesn’t mean that they’re unable to surpass them.

That's true, but again, you're just jumping to these conclusions that because people are championing these songs and enjoying the hell out of them in this round that some sort of argument is being made about literally all newer metal music. You're projecting sort of bias that you have onto other people's enjoyment of classic tracks.

“Stargazer” is merely good with some great parts,

In your opinion.

“Victim Of Changes” is kind of boring

To you.

and “Highway Star” can’t really stand up to any reasonably good driving metal song from the 80s or beyond, aside from that neoclassical solo.

According to you.

Be honest — how often do you actually put Rainbow into your listening rotation vs. other more recent music?

Literally all the fucking time. Like, weekly, probably? Definitely monthly.

 

[srfc]

Apologies, I thought that was implied by "Something that may have been groundbreaking for its time is almost guaranteed to eventually be eclipsed by people who were influenced by it, and at some point those advancements separate it enough from its influences that the influences sound tired and limited by comparison" and "it's generally slower and simpler and less heavy than the stuff that really grabs me."

EDIT: this is in reply to jer's post above mr knickerbocker's

 

[srfc]

I haven't been paying too much attention to throw out any "this is the strongest round yet!" style comments, but I'll be surprised if I've voted for a stronger collection of 6 tracks in the game so far.

 

[____no5]

Be honest — how often do you actually put Rainbow into your listening rotation vs. other more recent music?

Quite often. Especially Stargazer. Translate of "often": At least 10 times a year. This may sound not too often but then multiply it times 35 years and there aren't many groups that receive this honour, not even Maiden.

Plus for many of those 35 years, the number of listens were way much more than 10 times, 10 is the absolute minimum per year, for 35 years in-a-row.

Not to mention that it never gets old, the excitement and awe are always there after 35 years. It can't get better than that.

 

[Jer]

But, ultimately, we're not all sitting in here claiming that these songs are better "than everything that's come out since."

The people who nominated them for the GMSC more or less are.

That's true, but again, you're just jumping to these conclusions that because people are championing these songs and enjoying the hell out of them in this round that some sort of argument is being made about literally all newer metal music.

No, this stuff has shown up in the other games too (GMAC, Crusade, etc.). And people have flat-out stated that they voted based on familiarity bias a number of times.

Literally all the fucking time. Like, weekly, probably? Definitely monthly.

Good for you, you're legit too.

Now how often to you listen to it vs. Symphony X...?

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

The people who nominated them for the GMSC more or less are.

People nominated things for different reasons. Folks like NP and Per are trying to broaden the game a bit by reaching into genres outside of the norm of what they anticipated would get nominated.

I nominated Stargazer. I legitimately think it's one of the greatest proto-metal songs of all time and that it is directly responsible for a great deal of music that came after. Sometimes something can be both great and influential.

No, this stuff has shown up in the other games too (GMAC, Crusade, etc.). And people have flat-out stated that they voted based on familiarity bias a number of times.

Well, sure, I'm certainly not arguing that familiarity bias isn't a thing, of course it is. We've got 20-30 people voting in every round of this game and maybe 10-12 of us are actively commenting. Most folks just show up, click a button, and move on. It's the nature of random internet polls. If all 20-30 people were actively listening to every single track every single time, commenting, and engaging in debates - I've no doubt we'd see slightly different results.

In a perfect world, everyone would look at every aspect of everything before they vote, but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where at least 50% of people show up to a polling place and vote red or blue (familiar or unfamiliar) having done virtually no work to learn about the issues (music). But for those who do the research, which is a good number of us, I think it's reductive to say that they're solely voting on classic tracks just because they are classic.

Now how often to you listen to it vs. Symphony X...?

Actually more frequently. I'm a bit ridiculously anal retentive with my Symphony X listening as I tie 75% of their discography to the winter months.

Speaking of Symphony X, though, we'd be having a much more in-depth discussion if we were looking at something like "Stargazer vs. The Odyssey."

 

[____no5]

Most folks just show up, click a button, and move on. It's the nature of random internet polls. If all 20-30 people were actively listening to every single track every single time, commenting, and engaging in debates - I've no doubt we'd see slightly different results.

Exactly, the result would be virtually the same. It's not like there are thousands of voters; those 20 -30 people are frequenting here, they are not random dudes. Commenting, at least for me, is a matter if I have time or not, not an indication if I heard the songs.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

People nominated things for different reasons. Folks like NP and Per are trying to broaden the game a bit by reaching into genres outside of the norm of what they anticipated would get nominated.

Just sayin', I know Loosey said he would be very generous regarding the definition of "metal", but I still didn't put almost any boomer choices in my list, because I somehow was internally convinced that they wouldn't be accepted.

Otherwise I'd nominate at least some Who tracks so that we'd have something else apart from the silly mod era or the cock rock of Who's Next - been listening to Tommy in car recently and I see definite traces of both prog and metal there and it absolutely slaps, Go to the Mirror might be one of my favourite tracks ever.

Well, sure, I'm certainly not arguing that familiarity bias isn't a thing, of course it is. We've got 20-30 people voting in every round of this game and maybe 10-12 of us are actively commenting. Most folks just show up, click a button, and move on. It's the nature of random internet polls. If all 20-30 people were actively listening to every single track every single time, commenting, and engaging in debates - I've no doubt we'd see slightly different results.

Honestly, I know that Loosey values votes over anything else, but this pisses me off a bit - the "I don't know these tracks, haven't even listened to them, voted for what I know", I find that disingenuous and condescending. And I'm not talking about my tracks or those that I like only, it pisses me off even in cases where I actively dislike the track.