The Economic Crisis In Europe

Re: Greece, now.

Actually no, there ISN'T enough resources for all of us to have free anything. And plenty of people benefit from governments spending billions on "killing machines." The internet we are using, the GPS in our cars, our cell phones, even our fucking "space-age" Temperpedic beds and microwaves are directly linked to military/nasa research.

I agree there is plenty of ethicless capitalistic literature out there, but by the same token this "I should have it free because we can," talk is just as stupid.
 
Re: Greece, now.

For 3 million Euros? Maybe a couple hundred people. Housing is expensive, and that doesn't include constant upkeep, refurbishing, rebuilding, etc.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Zare said:
Because there is enough resources to do so. For all of us.
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Somebody has to pay for the housing. Where does the government get the money to pay for it from? Taxes. And who pays taxes? The people do. Moreover, the people would hand over control over living conditions (where to live, what type of housing you are provided and upkeep) to the government. Which ultimately means that improvement of living conditions means you paying more to the government... and if you don't have that kind of money, there may be alternate forms of payment.

So I'd rather pay for my housing myself and be a free person.
 
Re: Greece, now.

This is turning into a libertarian vs non-libertarian discussion. Only for the 23rd time or so.  :innocent:
 
Re: Greece, now.

Since that implies I am taking the libertarian side, I prefer the label bullshit vs non-bullshit discussion, and we're having them here 24/7. ;)
 
Re: Greece, now.

No, I see it like this:

GK and Zare as the libertarians (anti-government), and the rest on the other side. No_5 is somewhere in between (he is one of the few with interest for both ideas).  ;)
 
Re: Greece, now.

I don't think Zare has taken a libertarian side. I think he is talking about something else.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Alright. But at times the ideas are as radical.

Free property for all is a libertarian thought, if I am well informed.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Forostar said:
Free property for all is a libertarian thought, if I am well informed.
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Only in the sense that you should be able to get your own property and that it shouldn't be owned by the government. A libertarian would not want the government to provide him housing.
 
Re: Greece, now.

If you are thinking the government should provide everyone with housing, there is a different name for that. Socialism.

Here is a picture of it (and you thought the projects look bad)

Soviet-Era_Apartment_Block,_Georgia.jpg
 
Re: Greece, now.

And Socialism is the exact opposite of Libertarianism. Libertarians believe Obama is a Socialist.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Proving even more that libertarians don't really know what they're talking about. Obama would be considered a right-wing radical in most of Europe and Canada.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Most libertarians are people who got stuck with romantic frontiersmen ideals and would rather be cowboys shooting their way to the bar. Which is fine if you live in the Midwest or Nevada, but is inhuman for someone living in an urban, densely populated environment.

Which doesn't mean I reject the ideals of liberty and freedom. I certainly agree with some things libertarians say, and my response to Zare's demand is certainly in line with the libertarian point of view. But if you demand your rights, you have take up your responsibilities too.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Perun said:
I certainly agree with some things libertarians say
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Are these the things only libertarians say, or do others also speak in that language? I wonder what is so brilliant about the ideas of libertarians. Their very own unique ideas. From what I've read about Libertarianism, I can only conclude that I agree fully with SMX.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Forostar said:
Are these the things only libertarians say, or do others also speak in that language?
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I don't know. I never cared to find out, to be honest.
 
Re: Greece, now.

I agree with a lot of the ideas of libertarianism, but I think they get their core concepts wrong.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Zare said:
@SMX, you watched Zeitgeist, this is the sequel. It's only about economy. No religion/terrorism stuff.
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Aha, OK. Well, I may check it out sometime then.
Forostar said:
From what I've read about Libertarianism, I can only conclude that I agree fully with SMX.
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Wait, what?

This thread has taken so many twists and turns, I'm just curious what it is you agree with. :bigsmile:
 
Re: Greece, now.

I am curious about an example, LC and/or Per.

@SMX: I've seen a couple of posts in various topics in which you made Libertarianism ridiculous. Even though these posts can be interpreted as a bit rude at times, I must confess I fully agreed with your points. And they made me laugh as well.
 
Re: Greece, now.

I agree that there are some areas where the government should stay away, and that running a deficit is bad, and that balanced budgets are good, and reducing taxation when possible is a good thing. Housing is one of these areas, because every time we have tried it (IE, the projects, or the Soviet building program as I detailed previously) have failed miserably.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Now is it the government that failed, or is it that the population in said "projects" are kept down in other ways and in general live in squaler anyway due to ignorance of basic hygene, parenting, sex, etc? the goverment was going to give you a house, not a life, the rest is the persons responsibility. BUT WAIT! There are also government programs out there to help with just that! But what's this? They don't want to go, because they rather kick it with z-Dawg and J-diddy who push meth daily to support their crack habit and so they can tell themselves they are good parents for feeding their kids? Kids that get shot in a drive by shooting the next day?

We blame the government for WAY too much crap. I've been working social work for 2 years now and trust me that it has been enough to see person after person pass up incredibly good programs because they rather go to their box in the alley and drink a fifth of Vodka... "The Man" keeps people down? Bullshit, there is plenty of help out there that they are not taking advantage of due to poor choices.
 
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