The Economic Crisis In Europe
- Thread starter ____no5
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____no5
Free Man
Re: Greece, now.
3 dead already
ATHENS - Three people died when a bank went up in flames Wednesday as tens of thousands of Greeks took to the streets to protest harsh spending cuts aimed at saving the country from bankruptcy.
Rioter hurled paving stones and Molotov cocktails at police, who responded with heavy use of tear gas.
The fire brigade said the bodies were found in the wreckage of a Marfin Bank branch, on the route of the march in the city center.
Read more: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36958519/#ixzz0n3qigvJc
3 dead already
ATHENS - Three people died when a bank went up in flames Wednesday as tens of thousands of Greeks took to the streets to protest harsh spending cuts aimed at saving the country from bankruptcy.
Rioter hurled paving stones and Molotov cocktails at police, who responded with heavy use of tear gas.
The fire brigade said the bodies were found in the wreckage of a Marfin Bank branch, on the route of the march in the city center.
Read more: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36958519/#ixzz0n3qigvJc
Re: Greece, now.
Why do people in Greece think they somehow are exempt from paying for their mistakes? I mean, I know the government fucked up, but you think spending cuts are bad NOW? Go bankrupt and see what happens.
Why do people in Greece think they somehow are exempt from paying for their mistakes? I mean, I know the government fucked up, but you think spending cuts are bad NOW? Go bankrupt and see what happens.
____no5
Free Man
Re: Greece, now.
The reaction is still there. Government beats, people react.
Also don't forget that the politicians they won't really pay. The rich men neither. Basically the salaried and the retired will pay everything.
And this is unjust. The people who really fucked up /made a profit out of it, they'll still be rich.
Invader said:Who else is beating the Greeks but themselves?
The reaction is still there. Government beats, people react.
Also don't forget that the politicians they won't really pay. The rich men neither. Basically the salaried and the retired will pay everything.
And this is unjust. The people who really fucked up /made a profit out of it, they'll still be rich.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: Greece, now.
Greek men and politics. I have a tourist guide which says,
"There are political bars in Greece, often recognized by their own colour (blue, red etc.) which stands for a political direction. Greek men love to talk about politics. When you are in the vicinity of such a bar, there's one thing you should not do: talk about politics."
I thought that was a funny warning. Like there is no time left to do something else that day.
Greek men and politics. I have a tourist guide which says,
"There are political bars in Greece, often recognized by their own colour (blue, red etc.) which stands for a political direction. Greek men love to talk about politics. When you are in the vicinity of such a bar, there's one thing you should not do: talk about politics."
I thought that was a funny warning. Like there is no time left to do something else that day.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: Greece, now.
Taxes are high, no doubt. So is the VAT. Blame the government, or if the people largely supported this, then the voters take the blame as well. Economy chokes under heavy taxation. Germany has to look out for its own interests. I'm not even sure that this current deal will be paid off. "It is history" is trying to sweep mistakes under the rug. The best thing for Greece (and EU) would have been to let Greece remove itself from the EU. Lower its currency value, so that it can increase its exports. Cut 1/2 the bureaucracy, get rid of the VAT. It would be tough and with painful transitions, but the current way they're just prolonging the pain with worse trouble waiting for them in the future.
That I agree with, as well. Hence my post above.
Will-I-Am said:In the way I've put it, yes it's Germany's fault, a huge one.
Ridiculous benefits ?? You make me laugh, man : Having lived in Greece for a while, I didn't see any ridiculous benefits at all.
Yes, people who work for public sector are ridiculously far too many, yes they are not productive at all (in a ridiculous way)
but their salaries are very low, the taxation is very high (salary people they are the only to pay taxes as they can not hide)
I'm not aware of any worthy social benefit in Greece, it was already a ridiculously expensive country already, but now it will become simply unsupportable
@LC : The battle is already lost, I'm afraid : North is arrogant and South, untamed. Check the new issue of Focus and you'll understand why.
This is history, what's the matter, really... I'm talking EU and I'm talking now, Greece somehow deserves what it will pass through.
I'm talking of the fatal mistake of Germany now, the results of which we will see in a few years.
Whatever Greece did, we can not change it.
Taxes are high, no doubt. So is the VAT. Blame the government, or if the people largely supported this, then the voters take the blame as well. Economy chokes under heavy taxation. Germany has to look out for its own interests. I'm not even sure that this current deal will be paid off. "It is history" is trying to sweep mistakes under the rug. The best thing for Greece (and EU) would have been to let Greece remove itself from the EU. Lower its currency value, so that it can increase its exports. Cut 1/2 the bureaucracy, get rid of the VAT. It would be tough and with painful transitions, but the current way they're just prolonging the pain with worse trouble waiting for them in the future.
Will-I-Am said:
That I agree with, as well. Hence my post above.
____no5
Free Man
Re: Greece, now.
While feeling that I generally agree with you, there are some details that could change this statement. Anyway I highlight some mentionable points :
1.
100 % agreed. This is the essence. It was a huge malfunctioning system; Few big people were closing their eyes to small illegalities of many small people, while the later were closing their eyes to the huge illegalities of the big ones. For 30 -40 years at least.
2.
Good for Greece maybe, but not for Europe for the moment :
By doing this, while it could have made easier to saving itself, Greece would have put in big danger the stability of its banks,
which would cause huge damages to EURO and therefore, EU's economy.
Not to speak about the idea of EU itself. It would have been smashed.
So for now, this can not be done, not for Greece and mostly not for Europe. Maybe in the future, though.
To presume, I believe that this could be the solution, but not in the present circumstances.
Paul Krugman wrote about this :
"Any announcement of plans exit from the Eurozone, as economist Barry Eichengreen mentions, would mean the destruction of banks. For the same reason, any hint of external factors such as the European Central Bank, the existence of this alternative would trigger a dramatic attack on Greek banks and therefore can not be done. Basically, we should not raise the issue."
3.
Yeap. Get rid of the VAT /bureaucracy would be brilliant And of course lower its value. But, what exports ?
While feeling that I generally agree with you, there are some details that could change this statement. Anyway I highlight some mentionable points :
1.
100 % agreed. This is the essence. It was a huge malfunctioning system; Few big people were closing their eyes to small illegalities of many small people, while the later were closing their eyes to the huge illegalities of the big ones. For 30 -40 years at least.
2.
Good for Greece maybe, but not for Europe for the moment :
By doing this, while it could have made easier to saving itself, Greece would have put in big danger the stability of its banks,
which would cause huge damages to EURO and therefore, EU's economy.
Not to speak about the idea of EU itself. It would have been smashed.
So for now, this can not be done, not for Greece and mostly not for Europe. Maybe in the future, though.
To presume, I believe that this could be the solution, but not in the present circumstances.
Paul Krugman wrote about this :
"Any announcement of plans exit from the Eurozone, as economist Barry Eichengreen mentions, would mean the destruction of banks. For the same reason, any hint of external factors such as the European Central Bank, the existence of this alternative would trigger a dramatic attack on Greek banks and therefore can not be done. Basically, we should not raise the issue."
3.
Yeap. Get rid of the VAT /bureaucracy would be brilliant And of course lower its value. But, what exports ?
Re: Greece, now.
That's a really good point. Greece really doesn't produce much. 40% of their economy is based in the public sector, and 15% of it is tourism. Withdrawing from the EU would make tourism much less profitable, and they can't afford that. I think a collective EU response is probably the best thing.
But what Greece REALLY needs to do is go back in time and withdraw from the 2004 Olympic Games.
That's a really good point. Greece really doesn't produce much. 40% of their economy is based in the public sector, and 15% of it is tourism. Withdrawing from the EU would make tourism much less profitable, and they can't afford that. I think a collective EU response is probably the best thing.
But what Greece REALLY needs to do is go back in time and withdraw from the 2004 Olympic Games.
Re: Greece, now.
Which technically means that a declaration of bankruptcy would be favourable for the Greek government from an economic point of view, because they wouldn't need to repay their debt. The only thing that would be better for them is a hyperinflation, because all of the sudden they could repay their debt and wouldn't do more harm to their reputation.
Unfortunately, a hyperinflation would be a disaster for the rest of us.
Which technically means that a declaration of bankruptcy would be favourable for the Greek government from an economic point of view, because they wouldn't need to repay their debt. The only thing that would be better for them is a hyperinflation, because all of the sudden they could repay their debt and wouldn't do more harm to their reputation.
Unfortunately, a hyperinflation would be a disaster for the rest of us.
Ranko
I'll shoot the gunner first!
Re: Greece, now.
But how would they be able to repay the debt with hyperinflation? If money loses value, the billions that they owe would simply be recalculated in "billions of billions", right?
I guess Greece would be excluded from the Euro system then...Perun said:
But how would they be able to repay the debt with hyperinflation? If money loses value, the billions that they owe would simply be recalculated in "billions of billions", right?
Re: Greece, now.
People please open your eyes and your minds... DO NOT LET the PROPAGANDA take over your minds!
They always fighted Greece and the unity of Greeks but in the end they never succeeded.They try to turn against us the European citizens as to achieve their goal.And the goal is one.Global sovereignty.After us its your turn,and after your turn its the other's turn.
People please open your eyes and your minds... DO NOT LET the PROPAGANDA take over your minds!
They always fighted Greece and the unity of Greeks but in the end they never succeeded.They try to turn against us the European citizens as to achieve their goal.And the goal is one.Global sovereignty.After us its your turn,and after your turn its the other's turn.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Re: Greece, now.
Yes... The fact that Greece scammed its way into EMU is only a conspiracry theory? Dude, Greek officials and banks straight up lied about the financial state of Greece. They hid the truth about how it really was. That's no fair play but sadly Greece has to be bailed out because failure to do so will surely deeply harm the EMU.Nomad said: