The Economic Crisis In Europe

Re: Greece, now.

LOL.  Yes, it is Germany's fault.  The German people must give money on faith.  LOL.

I find it fascinating how countries deal with bad economy news.  The Irish public sector is urging its members to cut their own salaries realizing that even if they win, they lose.  Meanwhile the Greek public sector is rioting as if keeping their ridiculous benefits will help anyone in the long run, except of course bureaucrats and politicians.  The culture of the two peoples plays a huge role.
 
Re: Greece, now.

It's always easy to point your finger at others and accuse them of what went wrong. I find it interesting how no5 never mentioned that Greece cheated to get the Euro in the first place. Not that it really matters, but I really hope the Greeks will stop accusing others of the misery they're in.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Genghis Khan said:
LOL.  Yes, it is Germany's fault.  The German people must give money on faith.  LOL.

I find it fascinating how countries deal with bad economy news.  The Irish public sector is urging its members to cut their own salaries realizing that even if they win, they lose.  Meanwhile the Greek public sector is rioting as if keeping their ridiculous benefits will help anyone in the long run, except of course bureaucrats and politicians.  The culture of the two peoples plays a huge role.
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In the way I've put it, yes it's Germany's fault, a huge one.

Ridiculous benefits ?? You make me laugh, man : Having lived in Greece for a while, I didn't see any ridiculous benefits at all.
Yes, people who work for public sector are ridiculously far too many, yes they are not productive at all (in a ridiculous way)
but their salaries are very low, the taxation is very high (salary people they are the only to pay taxes as they can not hide)

I'm not aware of any worthy social benefit in Greece, it was already a ridiculously expensive country already, but now it will become simply unsupportable 


@LC : The battle is already lost, I'm afraid : North is arrogant and South, untamed. Check the new issue of Focus and you'll understand why.
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Perun said:
It's always easy to point your finger at others and accuse them of what went wrong. I find it interesting how no5 never mentioned that Greece cheated to get the Euro in the first place. Not that it really matters, but I really hope the Greeks will stop accusing others of the misery they're in.
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This is history, what's the matter, really... I'm talking EU and I'm talking now, Greece somehow deserves what it will pass through.
I'm talking of the fatal mistake of Germany now, the results of which we will see in a few years.
Whatever Greece did, we can not change it.
 
Re: Greece, now.

I'm not following you on the fatal mistake argument.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Perun said:
I'm not following you on the fatal mistake argument.
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The fatal mistake is the 5% of interest to the saving package. This will lead Greece to re-negotiate its debt*
and everybody knows it (German & Greek politicians, Strauss Khan, ECB, Sarkozy, all the relatives)
yet nobody's saying it, each party for its own reasons : Merkel not to loose the elections, Greek not to scare the markets, etc etc

Exactly as everybody knew that Greece was cheating back then and nobody telling...

*the re-negotiation of debt would be catastrophic for Euro. That's why Sarkozy, Khan, and everybody except Merkel wanted to loan Greece with a small interest.
Merkel, in order not to loose her face before her voters, she put as a condition this huge 5%
She acted too small for a head of a leading country, ridiculously small.

So the result will be : German people will pay again, and Greece will renegotiate its debt, thus Euro will go down, despite these huge efforts.
Which means that once again, Germans pay for nothing. And when they'll realise it this can be the end of the EU.

I hope I made myself clear now.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Okay, now I see what you mean, and I'd even say I agree with you.

The only thing I'd argue with is that Merkel isn't the only factor in this. You're talking about her as if she were a strong leader. She isn't. Maybe she has this image to the outside, but within Germany, with her government, the parliament, and most of all the people, she has little respect. So it's not Merkel alone who is responsible, but the entire government, some ministers probably more than her.
 
Re: Greece, now.

LooseCannon said:
Yes, exactly! This is what I was talking about: the EU is facing it's first real financial crisis that wasn't a shared burden (recessions are shared). Greece has made errors and now it is up to the other EU member states to decide what to do. If they pull together they create common security at the expense of the now; if they do not act together, they may regret it in the future. It is a very interesting moment in the pan-European movement.
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On the acting together aspect:
Don't worry mate. Europe (not only Germany) has taken its responsibility. Next: will Greece take its responsibility?

We'll see. They'll get the chance.
 
Re: Greece, now.

It's more complicated than this, Foro. This package will fail -is failed already, no matter what measures Greece will take.

Even in the case that we had the package of -let's say- 1% of interest, Greece is just incapable to be re-organized by itself -at least this is my opinion.

Even in the hypothetical case of that interesting package, again Greece should be re-organized from the start.
This means a government that will include all political parties, people respectable and if possible non professional politicians
an intermediate government in the way of a Commission, how could that be possible ??
There are no politicians with such balls in the whole world today, let alone Greece.
I even believe that a new constitution would be necessary, and a huge work to simplify the ridiculously complex law code (thousands of "windows").
The problem in Greece is basically not economic, the whole country needs to be re-established. The question is by whom.

To answer to your question, I've been told about the measures that Greek government took :
Terrible measures, that require huge sacrifices from the people but yet not enough for all the above reasons
IMF, EU, even Germany seem happy. Yeah right, like 10 years before when Greece entered in the Eurozone...

So to resume : Germany didn't really take the responsibility and Greece will not take it either. It's just a game or a joke, call it as you like.
 
Re: Greece, now.

But no5, why should Germany take the responsibility? I don't get it. Doesn't the Union mean that all the members stick together? Why is it all up to Germany all of the sudden?
 
Re: Greece, now.

Strictly and ideally speaking, it shouldn't. Practically speaking it should. For saving Euro and EU. Now things are too uncertain...

Also -this is not the reason, but it deserves to be mentioned-
Germany lost a great opportunity to be established as the leader of Europe (and not only its cash machine)
Now things are exactly like before : France seems to have the spirit but it can't, Germany can, but doesn't seem to have the spirit.
Such a perfect couple, they should get married one day   :bigsmile:
 
Re: Greece, now.

Germany proposed three times, but France always rejected.
 
Re: Greece, now.

This regards not only a plan, a package, a commission, a re-establishment or whatsoever.
Every citizen of a country which has been spending over the top needs to change their own spoiled mentality.
Get rid of the easy living, get rid of the early pensions, and all the other wasting practices.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Perun said:
Germany proposed three times, but France always rejected.
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I know  :(  sometimes I blame France for that

The eternal France : Can not accept to be second, can never be first.
Germany on the other hand, has given everything for Europe, but in the biggest hour it stepped back.
 
Re: Greece, now.

Will-I-Am said:
I know  :(  sometimes I blame France for that
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It was Schlieffen who fucked up if you ask me, but hey...
 
Re: Greece, now.

Perun said:
It was Schlieffen who fucked up if you ask me, but hey...
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I'm not aware of him, I wiki-ed the name but only got Alfred von Schlieffen (rip 1913) and a so called Schlieffen Plan
 
Re: Greece, now.

Yes, that's what I meant. I was using a subtle irony nodding towards the German attempts to conquer France in 1871, 1914 and 1940.
 
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