THE CRUSADE OF EPICS: Results -> A Change Of Seasons wins!

JudasMyGuide said:
Surely you must be confusing Epica with Within Temptation there, mate. Sorry, but I just find it hilarious that someone who's able to write full paragraphs on single songs... no, single parts of songs when it's Opeth or Symph X is able do say this based on some really skin-deep similarities.

I don't mind first- and second-ratedness that much (although I personally find Epica to be lights ahead in musical proficiency and to be much less trivial in their composing (though not as catchy), which makes me wonder about this "second-ratedness" in general) but they are not even that similar.

This one annoys me just as much as you guys were annoyed by me comparing Symph X and Dream Theater - some general similarities do not make the bands alike. Draconian also have a female singer, but even if they used orchestra, that would not make them a Nightwish clone. Maiden might have even been inspired by Thin Lizzy and use the sweet guitar harmonies, but the bands are not much alike.

I'm not even a huge fan, it just annoys me, because there are many other bands that are actually annoyingly similar to Nightwish, but this here... like I said:
"Dude, Symph X are just a second-rate Dream Theater, and they've ever done anything to convince me otherwise. 'Cause, like, both bands have virtuoso guitarists, keyboardists and drummers, play long songs, are metal, have used polyrhythms and both reference some form of classical art in their name, but DT are, like, older, have better chops, catchier choruses and feel more professional in their self-presentation".
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Though I don’t agree about Epica’s compositional skills, as I mentioned before Mark Jansen doing very little for me, I agree they don’t share many similarities with Nightwish beyond genre and a female singer.
 
I think I understand what DB meant, basically that of the big symphonic bands Nightwish does much more for him, but yeah, they’re very different and I think it wasn’t the best choice of words. They’re both uniquely their own identity.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
Surely you must be confusing Epica with Within Temptation there, mate. Sorry, but I just find it hilarious that someone who's able to write full paragraphs on single songs... no, single parts of songs when it's Opeth or Symph X is able do say this based on some really skin-deep similarities.

I don't mind first- and second-ratedness that much (although I personally find Epica to be lights ahead in musical proficiency and to be much less trivial in their composing (though not as catchy), which makes me wonder about this "second-ratedness" in general) but they are not even that similar.

This one annoys me just as much as you guys were annoyed by me comparing Symph X and Dream Theater - some general similarities do not make the bands alike. Draconian also have a female singer, but even if they used orchestra, that would not make them a Nightwish clone. Maiden might have even been inspired by Thin Lizzy and use the sweet guitar harmonies, but the bands are not much alike.

I'm not even a huge fan, it just annoys me, because there are many other bands that are actually annoyingly similar to Nightwish, but this here... like I said:
"Dude, Symph X are just a second-rate Dream Theater, and they've ever done anything to convince me otherwise. 'Cause, like, both bands have virtuoso guitarists, keyboardists and drummers, play long songs, are metal, have used polyrhythms and both reference some form of classical art in their name, but DT are, like, older, have better chops, catchier choruses and feel more professional in their self-presentation".
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I'll admit that I have not listened to much Epica, but what I have heard reminds me of Nightwish. I'm sure they have a ton of material that doesn't sound like them, but when you have a female opera singer, heavily orchestral arrangements, and aggressive male vocals, the comparisons are going to be made. The two bands share a lot in common.

Calling Epica a second-rate Nightwish is just my opinion. I prefer Nightwish's vocals (all three of them, honestly) to Simone, I prefer the songwriting style, and I prefer Marco's vocals to the guy in Epica's screaming. I can't stress enough how much I dislike that screaming, and how much it lowers the quality of Epica for me. So in summary: I have not heard much of Epica's discography, but from what I have heard, they are a band with many similarities to Nightwish. From this song alone, Epica's musicians are definitely stronger - but Nightwish's talent was always in the songwriting and vocals for me.

If you've heard only a few Symphony X songs, depending on the songs you heard, it's certainly possible that you could find many similarities to Dream Theater. They are both bands that play heavy music, they both have singers who can wail, they are both beyond technically proficient, they both often write long songs, and they both have prominent keyboards. But if you break it down, they are truly not similar in their style and songwriting approach. Dream Theater has a nasally singer, they often write pieces that are designed specifically to show off, and have a far more diverse songwriting style. John Petrucci plays acoustic/clean pieces often and incorporates folky chord strumming into the songs, whereas Michael Romeo almost always arpeggiates clean chords. This leads to a radically different sound, with Dream Theater's being far more traditionally commercial. They've experimented with every genre I can think of, minus country. I truly struggle to even call them a metal band, because that's not even half of their sound. They're a progressive rock band who have been influenced by everyone under the sun. They are also more lyrically mature, usually penning songs about life experiences and broad, big-picture philosophies. They are without a doubt more professional in their approach, but there are a myriad of reasons for that and I'm not going to get into that right now.

Symphony X is a progressive metal band. It's truly difficult to describe them as something else, because that's simply what they are. They have metal songs and they have progressive songs, with many being somewhere in between. The guitars might get wanky in the solos, and there might be crazy fills (on all instruments) here and there for a little extra flavor, but outside of that, they're not writing pieces to show off. Their technical ability is usually woven into the riffs and spread out more evenly throughout a song, rather than saved for a big mandatory 5-minute out-of-place instrumental section. The songwriting flows well and their transitions are typically excellent. Russell Allen is gritty, aggressive, and bluesy - the polar opposite of James LaBrie. They are more riff-based than Dream Theater and typically forego big sweeping half-time bridges and choruses in favor of keeping the groove of a song intact. Their influences are not as diverse as Dream Theater's - mainly classical, orchestral scores, '80s metal, and classic prog rock. They've dabbled in jazz, but not often. Lyrically, they used to stick mostly to mythology and classic works of art, but have lately watered down their sound with vague "tuf guy" metal lyrics. Regardless, that's again a polar opposite of Dream Theater. Performance-wise, unlike Dream Theater's epic productions, they are very "meat-n'-potatoes." They're just, y'know, dudes who show up to a gig to play complex progressive epic metal. Their overall vibe is completely different.

I'm sure if I listened to Epica's entire discography, I'd find plenty of things that set them apart from Nightwish. In this song, I'm a fan of the choral/orchestral arrangements in some parts, and I do like the piano. They're definitely far less self-indulgent than Nightwish with Tuomas and his spoken-word fluff. The "riff" at 7:10 is great. But it is really difficult to not hear Nightwish whenever Simone is singing (especially during the big choruses). For the record, I do not dislike Epica - they just often struggle to fully immerse me into their works. This is far and away the best track I have heard by them, and perhaps I've only heard their shorter, "poppier" works in the past. Do they have any albums (or songs) without the harsh vocals? It sounds like they're in the same style as Opeth's (gutteral), but I love Akerfeldt's growls and greatly dislike these.
 
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The vocals make a big (if not the biggest) difference, for you, I think.

Yes there are songs without harsh vocals, but not long ones.
 
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I think Epica has a few songs that fit criteria of the game that are way better than this one. IMO Epica was at its best on Design Your Universe and Requiem For The Indifferent where the orchestral/symphonic stuff was in the background and melodeath influences in guitars and drums prevailed. So the harsh vocals weren't as jarring as they are in this song, and with less choirs, Simone had a better chance to shine. I just don't see anything special on this song. I also don't think they ever sounded like Nightwish.

Obviously I'm more biased in favor of The Ocean song as I was the one who nominated it, and I love this album (and its predecessor in particular). Pretty much everything works here. Vocals are great (haven't seen comments acknowledging Jonas' presence on this song), both the cleans and the screams. I've become a big fan of Loïc Rossetti's vocals; he can really do it all, his cleans are instantly recognizable and he puts great passion into the screaming stuff. I just don't think this music would work without screaming; might just be my bias because I probably prefer harsh vocals to clean vocals at this point, in music in general. But when he belts out the screams it just makes me way more pumped up than if he just sang normally. Anyway, back to the song; build-up to the "giant rulers of the world" part is amazing. The riffs are hypnotic, and quite Mastodon-ish and the horn section works perfectly. There's gonna be another The Ocean song later in the game, another one with Jonas Renkse too.
 
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Results of Round 17:
Epica - The Holographic Principle - A Profound Understanding Of Reality
The Ocean - Jurassic | Cretaceous

Symphony X - The Odyssey (Nominated by @Diesel 11, @MrKnickerbocker, @LooseCannon)
vs.
Symphony X - When All Is Lost (Nominated by @Black Wizard)
 
I believe that The Odyssey is one of the best songs ever written, in any genre. When All Is Lost isn't even in my top 30 Symphony X songs, and I actually think it is one of the weakest tracks on Iconoclast. Aside from the classic prog rock middle section, everything about it sounds like it was written to fill the "we need a ballad" quota. The trademark Symphony X-isms that highlighted tracks of this nature in the past are absent, and it's very apparent on a more open song such as this. Some of the verses are emotive, and I like Romeo's clean folky riff (and Pinnella playing the riff out of sync, like an echo), but there's at least five other songs on Iconoclast alone that I prefer.

The Odyssey, no contest. I'm glad this wasn't The Odyssey against The Divine Wings of Tragedy, though. Was it nominated?
 
That sound you hear is me kicking myself for not following up on that mental note I took in the late 90s to go check out Symphony X sometime. With the GMAC and now this game finally putting this stuff in front of me, it’s frustrating to know that I could have been enjoying it for 20 years or so — but better late than never, I guess.

“The Odyssey” is pretty much everything this game is about. It’s epic in scope, length, and sound, and it goes on a literal musical odyssey without losing cohesion, which is amazing for a 24+ minute song. It’s got great, memorable parts throughout, and in terms of songwriting and performances there isn’t really anything to criticize. My one complaint, and it’s a recurring one with Symphony X, is that the synth sounds are incredibly chintzy, especially the orchestral bits. We’re talking 1990s cartoon or Hallmark movie soundtrack bad. It’s kind of embarrassing to listen to, especially in parts that are supposed to be mostly orchestral in nature. I mean, even Yngwie Malmsteen could afford to hire an Eastern European orchestra to back him up when he was long past the peak of his popularity, so why do these guys with “Symphony” right in their name keep going the bargain basement route? Anyway, that’s pretty much the only blemish here, and it’s not as big of a deal as I may be making it sound. I fully expect this song to be a top contender for the Crusade Of Epics title.

“When All Is Lost” is also great, at a much more compact 9 minutes. What starts off as a strong and well-written ballad winds up rocking surprisingly hard by the end, and the song stays really tight and cohesive for a longer track. It also avoids most of the low-rent synth embarrassment that the band often falls prey to.

“When All Is Lost” is a great song, but in the end it doesn’t check as many of the “epic” boxes as “The Odyssey” does — so sorry, @Black Wizard, but I have to go with MrDickelCocker 007’s nominee. Winner: Symphony X - “The Odyssey”
 
Jer said:
That sound you hear is me kicking myself for not following up on that mental note I took in the late 90s to go check out Symphony X sometime. With the GMAC and now this game finally putting this stuff in front of me, it’s frustrating to know that I could have been enjoying it for 20 years or so — but better late than never, I guess.
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Still time to join the Symphony X Deep Dive Discussion! We’re only on the second album and the first is skippable for new listeners.
 
Jer said:
That sound you hear is me kicking myself for not following up on that mental note I took in the late 90s to go check out Symphony X sometime. With the GMAC and now this game finally putting this stuff in front of me, it’s frustrating to know that I could have been enjoying it for 20 years or so — but better late than never, I guess.
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That's one of the reasons for running these crazy contests, to expose people to stuff that they might pick up on!
 
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Dull sections. Can't hear what is so grabbing. I'm into the first minute of its opponent and hear already better melodies than in the entire Odyssey.
 
Forostar said:
Dull sections. Can't hear what is so grabbing. I'm into the first minute of its opponent and hear already better melodies than in the entire Odyssey.
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Honestly, I don't get this at all. But hey, that's why it's a vote.

For me, the best parts of The Odyssey are the evil theme around 8:30 in, and the triumph of Odysseus/champion of Ithaca starting at 20:08.
 
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