Sabaton

Maturin said:
Well, Karl XII or Carolus Rex is the Jesus of Swedish neo-nazis and racists. They celebrate him on November 30th, something which not seldom turns into violence. There isn't a single person in the history of Sweden to write an album about which would be more of a nationalist statement. Next thing would be Rammstein naming their next album "Adolf Hitler".
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But he is chosen for that position because he represents the glory of Sweden surely, and not for any negative reason. The reason glorifying Hitler would be a very bad move is because he is infamous for the crimes he commited, and it is known the world over. He is associated with something very bad by nature of HIMSELF, and not the people who have chosen to adopt him as their icon. Whereas Karl would be the opposite (as far as I'm aware), he has no negative association on his own, only negative due to the groups that have adopted him.

On the national anthem part, I don't see why the hell Britain's anthem should be all about one woman. Hundreds of years ago when the rulers led their forces on the battlefield, and were ruler because they had the strength (be it strength or arms or strength of mind - tactics etc), they had proven to the people that they were able to bring glory as well as being at the head of the army... now, well the Queen certainly brings in money to the country and has a large behind the scene's aspect, but she hasn't earnt the rule outside of being born into it. Old warriors would see the king and think "That's someone I'm willing to follow!" .. can't see any one really thinking that now. Yet, despite these things, Britain still holds its national anthem about an individual, despite it being pretty far removed today.

Why should displaying pride in your nation, by showing a flag and saying "I'm from here, and I'm proud", be a bad thing? The flag doesn't represent anything else at all, it represents the COUNTRY. Hence why it's flown at events like the olympics.
 
Maturin said:
Next thing would be Rammstein naming their next album "Adolf Hitler".
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That's just plainly an offensive comparison.

And by the way. Nazis and racists do not own Sweden's history. Nor do they possess the Norse mythology, even though they for some reason identify with it. To simply allow them to take ownership of them is to throw in the towel (and I'm not even going to begin to tell you how silly it is to consider Carolus Rex nationalistic).
 
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Yax said:
(and I'm not even going to begin to tell you how silly it is to consider Carolus Rex nationalistic).
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I'd like to see how you do that. You put this stuff in brackets but Maturin explained why it is nationalistic, in his eyes at least. Why not, for you?

Nazis and racists do not own a country's history but it's not unlikely that they can represent an extreme form of nationalism. Nationalism comes in different degradations. The more "innocent" form can perhaps be found in sports or art. Like this album: music and lyrics about someone's deeds/history. Apparently to Maturin it is less innocent than to Yax and others. Maturin explained his view. Now why do the others think it's more innocent than in Maturin's opinion?

I haven't studied the lyrics of Carolus, nor do I know the man's history that well.

What I do know is that I think I'd love to see a film about Michiel de Ruyter, an incredibly brave, skilled and most loyal admiral in Dutch history.
Might a nationalistic part in me love to see a portrayal of some of his many ventures, or hear an album about it? Or just the admiration for so much courage and skill.
But how dangerous is it to be interested in such a product? That's also a question to Maturin. :)
 
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I'll address a few points here.
You don't hang the flag from the balcony or your window. You yourself rarely hoist it at all, really, although it is frequently used in official business and representation. As EW says, there is an aversion to this. I think it became this way by letting racists and nazis claim it for their own. Just like they try with the mythology and Karl XII.

The link between white supremacists and Karl XII is this alone: The Swedish army under his command (not saying that he was the strategy mastermind) invaded Russia and subjugated Denmark and Poland, when these three nations attacked Sweden. The nazi's see this as the epitome of the Swedish spirit and military strength and claim him as a symbol for the greatness of the Swedes. That is all. That's why they celebrate the day of his death in Norway, because they try and make him the symbol of themselves, in an odd twisted way. But how does that make the subject of Karl XII nationalistic? It does not. That's guilt by association. You should be able to write songs about Swedish military history without being linked to nationalism. If you can't, then why is that? Because you've let white supremacists claim ownership, just like with the flag. I don't wave flags around, but I damn sure feel as part of the social stigma of doing so relates to having let racists claim it for their own and make it into a negative action.

Sabaton are a war themed band. They write songs about military history. But it is not related to nazism or racism. It does not paint the picture of Swedes as a supreme people. The lyrics cover Karl XII's wars, conquests and whatnot from a simplistic perspective. Nothing more and nothing less. And you should be very careful about how you label things, because you easily devalue the meaning of the label.

Edit: bah. You have edited your post. I'll respond later, although the body of my post is still relevant to your added text.

Edit 2: I just recalled a line. "Crowned by god not by the church as my power is divine" (The English version), if anything this paints Karl XII as a religious zealot.
 
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@Yax: To your last point. I have read interviews with Sabaton about just this, where they made it perfectly clear that the lyrics of the song Carolus Rex was meant to show the megalomaniac side of Carl XII.

I am totally with you in your reasoning. The reason why showing the Swedish flag (or Norse symbols) has been linked with unsound nationalism is because the public has let the neo-Nazis take ownership of them. And since guilt by association is such a common thing, people rather avoid doing something that can lead to them being associated with the bad guys.

Sabaton, in my opinion, stand up against this. They do not accept to be labeled guilty by association with white supremacists. They write songs about things that interest them and don't seem to care that these things also interest neo-Nazis.

@Maturin : Regarding your analog with Rammstein making an album called "Adolf Hitler". Would that automatically be bad? Would it make Rammstein a neo-Nazi band? Even if the lyrics of the album showed Hitler for the evil megalomaniac he was?
 
I have the same impression. To me, Carolus Rex is about a megalomaniac lunatic unfit for rule. A Swedish Nero, if you will.
 
I don't know. I'm not big on Sabaton but reading through the lyrics of Carlous Rex they don't seem at all sarcastic to me..or like they are mocking a lunatic...If the whole thing is just a joke about Karl Xii then the band is even sillier than I first thought...:D

Would they have such a cover that they have on the album if they were negative towards him?
 
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It's not a joke. It's their portrayal. The guy was most certainly a bit insane.
 
It seems fairly obvious to me that they view Carolus Rex as an influential person with an iron will and an incredible amount of power. All of the lyrics in "Carolus Rex" seem to imply that he has a massive ego and has deluded himself into sanctity ("my power is divine"-"say my name when you pray"), probably due to the fact that he was a successful military leader. It seems that they respect him as a leader, but certainly question his motivation and personal character.
 
Yeah, I think they stay fairly objective though the whole thing....Only in the title song can I sense a somewhat megalomaniac moment, but other than that it reads like a timeline of his life really and of the Swedish "stormaktstid"..... When Sweden was a military superpower in those days.
 
Even if this album is not about racism, nazism or white supremacy, it can still be seen as nationalistic.

The things is, while someone does not like that aspect, another person can deny it, a third might shrug and a fourth just ignores it. That doesn't mean that this album has no nationalistic touch.
 
Yax said:
It's not a joke. It's their portrayal. The guy was most certainly a bit insane.
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Absolutely. I do not think that writing an album about an influential historical figure means that the band idolizes everything represented by that person.

SixesAlltheway said:
Yeah, I think they stay fairly objective though the whole thing....Only in the title song can I sense a somewhat megalomaniac moment, but other than that it reads like a timeline of his life really and of the Swedish "stormaktstid"..... When Sweden was a military superpower in those days.
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I think so as well. But, I'm also looking at this from an outside perspective. There is obviously a completely different, more well-informed, perspective to be gained from someone in Sweden, whether I agree with the analysis or not.

Forostar said:
Even if this album is not about racism, nazism or white supremacy, it can still be seen as nationalistic.
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It is absolutely nationalistic. I personally do not understand the negative criticisms of a band being nationalistic, maybe because I'm so used to hearing nationalism every day in America. Have you heard country music?
 
I don't take offense as such. Scandinavia has a rich history of kings that conquered, settled and ruled in those days, all the way back to the viking times. Swedish Karl XII is like our Knud Den Store, Valdemar Sejr or Harald Blåtand...so many great stories to tell...I don't think it's more than that really....a great story to tell/sing about!
 
Again, there is nationalism and nationalism. It's a huge difference between simply being proud of something in your country's history, and being a neo-Nazi. Waving your country's flag doesn't mean you condone every bad thing done by institutions of your country throughout history.

Just because some people who hate foreigners use the flag, it doesn't mean the flag is a symbol of hate towards foreigners.
 
Would patriotic be a more suitable term?

I don't get the dislike of the flag waving either tbh. During events like the World Cup or Olympics everyone and their dog is waving a flag, half the houses in England will have a flag hanging out the window certainly. America displays their flag more than any other country I can think of, and having been in festival campsites most little tent communities have a flag erected somewhere (not always from a country admittedly). Don't see it as much from other counties but for some reason Cornish people seem to all display their flag a lot here too.
 
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Megadeth, Slayer, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains listed AFTER Sabaton?! :censored:
 
Holy shit...that is an amazing festival! I would watch at least 12 of those bands of my own free will! That's better than any festival that's played the States since ever.
 
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