Russia invades Ukraine

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
I mean, it's a very funny line, but rulers and leaders should have backup plans, and indeed, emergency plans. Think of Churchill's reaction when he was told that all the fighters were committed on September 15th, 1940. He wasn't too pleased that the reserves were already in use, and for all his other faults none would suggest Churchill had no faith.
 

Meliegree

Sound of distant drums
Poland is preparing army but it's one big BS ( I'm writing that because I heard that some newspapers in Europe are writing about it).
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Biden on why he won’t provide Ukraine with ATACMS missiles: “The idea that we would give Ukraine materiel that is fundamentally different than what's already going there would have the prospect of breaking up NATO, the EU & the rest of the world”

And now this:

We can safely assume that France and maybe Germany is a traitor NATO members. I cannot stress enough that Macron is a MORON. By such stance he is prolonging the war. F*k, F#k, F%k. Seriously, WTF.
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
How does Macron's stance prolong the war? I'm curious what the logic here is.

Biden is outfitting Ukraine with Patriots and is keeping their HIMARS in the fight. Russia doesn't have the evasive capacity required to need the employment of ATACMS, and as they are technically cruise missiles instead of rockets, may lead to escalation.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
The sooner Ukraine will receive long range/offensive weapons, the sooner invaders will be pushed out of Ukraine's territory. Not enough tanks, heavy armored vehicles, artillery systems prevents Ukraine's army from liberating it's territories. And a word about escalation: This is A Myth. Whats wrong, with you Westerners? Don't you see that Putin is bluffing and acting like a poker player. What happened after Crimea bridge blowup and most recent attacks on russian aerodromes? Excatly, NOTHING. ZERO. NADA.
(Attacks on Ukraine's infrastructure is the last russia's army card)
Escalation is a pro Kremlin narrative, forget it.
So, after Biden's answer to the question it is clear that some NATO countries is against giving to Ukraine ATACMS. France is still dreaming about not humilliating russia and wants to give to the aggressor security guaranties. In other words, France and maybe Germany does not want crushing defeat of russia. Let's say, France would be happy if Crimea would stay with russia, after Ukraine's victory. And truly, if Crimea would stay with russia, Putin would grin as m***er, he would sell this to his nation as a victory. Ukraine must win on all fronts.
I wrote this ↑ and then saw this ↓
 
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LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
The whole thing about escalation is you only need to be wrong that Russia is bluffing once before Kyiv disappears behind a mushroom cloud. Ukraine is kicking ass without the additional weapons systems, weapons systems that are far more expensive per shot than HIMARS, weapons systems that need additional training.

Look at what the biggest challenge actually is - the challenge you called out. The attacks on Ukraine's infrastructure. And what has the United States done? Provided the Patriot missile/drone defense system to harden Ukraine's defenses. It is very clear that when the USA observes a clear need in Ukraine's defenses, they provide what their military actually needs.

I would say Macron's public stance is more of an act than anything else. But even if not France will not long term oppose Ukraine's entrance into NATO. Besides, Macron will be gone by then, there is no chance Ukraine joins NATO until the some time after the end of Russian hostilities.
 

bearfan

Ancient Mariner
I agree that anti-missile drone stuff is what is needed now (really needed some time ago) and waiting for all these reactions is getting a lot of people killed. The ultimate goal needs to be getting Ukraine what it needs to kick them out of Ukraine completely
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
One more point regarding escalation...
Putin claims Patriot systems not as good as Russian missiles, pledges to destroy them. "The Patriot is quite an outdated system, it doesn't work as well as our S-300 (surface-to-air) missiles," Putin told journalists. "Let them supply them - we'll destroy them as well."

You see? Putin can't do nothing about it, so he downplays it. If you show strength, this mafia thug backs down. If you show weakness, he attacks. Forget this stupid 'escalation' thing. It only works in Kremlin's favor. Indecesiveness prolongs the war. If Ukraine would receive enough ATACMS, tanks and HIMARS, war would end in several months.
Russia (as imperialistic unit) must be destroyed. The End.
 
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LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
Ukraine cannot destroy Russia? What sort of crack do you smoke? They can defeat Russia - and have been, tactically - but the only way the war stops is Russia decides to stop it, or Putin is removed from power. Do you have dreams of Ukrainian tank regiments rolling across Red Square or something? ATACMS are not some magic weapon that will instantly defeat Russia. There are few tanks left to give. And it sounds like Ukraine has put the rock back in their fist, waiting for the January freeze, without ATACMS.
 

bearfan

Ancient Mariner
Yeah, there is no way Ukraine occupies Russia, luckily they do not want to. We (the west ... and really the world) needs to arm Ukraine to kick the Russians back to Russia ... and if that happens (or looks like it will happen), Putin is toast. Then the question is who replaces him, someone better or someone worse. Either way, it is clear that for the near future, Russia is not a threat to take anyone over anymore (with the obvious exception of their nukes), they are at best a 3rd rate military with the potential for a lot of 3rd rate soldiers.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Ukraine will not invade russia. There's a chance that after defeat russia will break down without any intervention.
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
I think the pattern remains pretty clear, every time Russia tries to step up their game, the West gives Ukraine a new tool to handle it. Also that tweet is being dishonest as British generals do not command NATO, they are deputy commander.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
Don't you think that now it's time for the West be proactive, not reactive. To speed all the process, give Ukrainians all they need, train them, before russia will submerge in to the concept of total war. The more Ukraine army will be powerful, the less voices will be near putin, regarding new war ventures.
 

Perun

After the war?
Staff member
That's kind of what's happening, Azas. Leading politicians in Germany are starting to publicly discuss the idea of sending Leopard tanks to Ukraine, for instance. The problem is however that there is not "the West" as one unified entity to make decisions, but many countries with governments made up of various factions that need to settle on common ground. We're not Russia, we don't have one guy calling the shots.
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
There's a host of concerns as well. I think that the West is more broadly seeing Russia as a paper tiger, and the slow ratcheting of pressure is interesting indeed. A year ago there was no talk of sending Marders, Bradleys, IRIS, HIMARS, etc. Now all of those are operating in Ukraine or will be shortly.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
:D Just found this meme. And by it's core.. it's true.. As a Eastern European, I wondered for months what's wrong with Germany, why they afraid to step up their game regarding military help. And again, Poland already announced that they will give Leopards. As if Germany (big, powerful country) is hiding behind backs of others.
Yes, I know that Germany is helping Ukraine very much with money and militarily, gave Iris T and so on. After visiting Ukraine, president of Germany has stated rightful speach/observations. My main gripe is that Germany can do better. Less talk and less doubts. Together till Victory!
(I understand that paradigm shift to Ukraine can win in many western countries happened not overnight...)
 
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LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
Poland has said they want to, but Germany has to approve the export of Leopards. Arming Ukraine with Leopards is a huge step and I'm not entirely sure it's one I want to see. If we do it, then it's important we do it en masse and give Ukraine enough to make a huge difference. The Leopard is the NATO standard vehicle where exposure to Russia is the least critical to intelligence, but I'm not entirely pleased with the idea of the Russians ending up with their hands on a few.
 
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