Russia invades Ukraine

Dick Brucinson

Smithdrian A
Meanwhile, Germany still "we won't give tanks to Ukraine". Beyond pathetic, if you ask me. If there would be no USA and Great Britain, Ukraine would be slaughtered already. Many russian agents of influence in Germany. SLAVA UKRAINI!
But that's more the government's line, not so much the German people's position. It's all based on the fact that Germany once started off the most evil war in human history, and that's why almost every German government would hesitate sending tanks.
 

Azas

It Was a Dark and Stormy Night
But that's more the government's line, not so much the German people's position. It's all based on the fact that Germany once started off the most evil war in human history, and that's why almost every German government would hesitate sending tanks.
I know that Germany's people support Ukraine. But this is WAR. Germany's government must act. There's simply no other options. Putin is dangerous and mad. Indecisiveness in the face of aggression looks very bad.

EDIT:
Regarding: "It's all based on the fact that Germany once started off the most evil war in human history, and that's why almost every German government would hesitate sending tanks."

So, Germany does not want to redeem itself, and AGAIN chooses wrong side of the history? It's your's chance - as a nation - to make things RIGHT. Russia is rotten to the core. You are no longer nazi Germany, so why do you feel guilty and hesitate? HELP UKRAINE WITH HEAVY WEAPONS AND YOU WILL GAIN ETERNAL GRATITUDE AND RESPECT.
 
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Dick Brucinson

Smithdrian A
I know that Germany's people support Ukraine. But this is WAR. Germany's government must act. There's simply no other options. Putin is dangerous and mad. Indecisiveness in the face of aggression looks very bad.
In this country are many things going wrong for a while yet, the hesitation about about heavy war machines for the benefit of the Ukraine indeed is one of them.
 

Magnus

Pica Serdica
Why isn't russia kicked out of the UN yet btw?
League of Nations, generally considered a much weaker predecessor of UN, did expel them in very similar circumstances after all. No nukes back then, sure, but is this about principles or physics?
 

SinisterMinisterX

Illuminatus
Staff member
Why isn't russia kicked out of the UN yet btw?
League of Nations, generally considered a much weaker predecessor of UN, did expel them in very similar circumstances after all. No nukes back then, sure, but is this about principles or physics?
The UN charter grants permanent seats on the Security Council to the US, France, the UK, China, and the Soviet Union. Since the last collapsed, Russia has been given that permanent membership. I don't believe there is any mechanism to change this.

Even if it were possible, it would be unwise. If the UN is to be effective, even the warmongers need a seat at the table.
 

Magnus

Pica Serdica
The UN charter grants permanent seats on the Security Council to the US, France, the UK, China, and the Soviet Union. Since the last collapsed, Russia has been given that permanent membership. I don't believe there is any mechanism to change this.

Even if it were possible, it would be unwise. If the UN is to be effective, even the warmongers need a seat at the table.
russia has granted a thing or two meanwhile, and now behaves as if it never did.
If you show your contempt of rules, why should you expect everyone else abiding by them? If you believe the entire world is against you, and feel proud about it, why would you want to participate in a global organization?

And these are not warmongers but criminals.
 

SinisterMinisterX

Illuminatus
Staff member
russia has granted a thing or two meanwhile, and now behaves as if it never did.
If you show your contempt of rules, why should you expect everyone else abiding by them? If you believe the entire world is against you, and feel proud about it, why would you want to participate in a global organization?
In this particular case, Russia has a veto power that comes with their permanent seat in the Security Council. At minimum, they can (and often do) stop the UN from taking actions. Russia may have contempt for rules, but they're still happy to take advantage of those same rules whenever possible.

And these are not warmongers but criminals.
Why can't it be both?
 

Magnus

Pica Serdica
Of course it can be both. Reinhard Heydrich was both a man of many talents and a mass murderer after all.
What I'm saying is that if you have murderers, rapists and marauders at your table, your table's credibility goes down the drain, common hygiene aside. And everything "permanent" stopped being valid in 2014, and even more so this February.
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
Like it or not, the UN table has always been full of murderers, rapists, and marauders. The level of power required to run a nation, especially a nation on the security council? The UN isn't very successful at preventing war, but it does a huge amount of good around the world, and part of that is because it allows all nations to show up and talk. Sometimes it's bullshit blather - most of the time - but that doesn't stop UNICEF from feeding kids or the IMF from funding critical infrastructure pieces or WHO from subsidizing vaccinations in Africa.
 
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LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
Thank You Germany for doing this. I know that Germany sends money to Ukraine, etc.

You are no longer nazi Germany, so why do you feel guilty and hesitate? HELP UKRAINE WITH HEAVY WEAPONS AND YOU WILL GAIN ETERNAL GRATITUDE AND RESPECT.
You really do swing on a pivot on this. Germany has sent millions of Euros of lethal and non-lethal aid to Ukraine. However, they are a country with only 266 tanks in their main forces and a few hundred old Leopards in reserve. Poland had three times as many tanks, and has sent a bunch of them.

Germany has delivered 20 Gepard self-propelled anti-air, 3 MARS II rocket launchers, 10 PzH 2000 155m self-propelled artillery pieces, 53 M113s, and millions of rounds of ammunition. The tanks they have are ones that do not fit inside the Ukrainian supply chain and can hardly be spared if the Heer is to be at all a functional military.
 

Dick Brucinson

Smithdrian A
Really wondering when and how the tyrant will come to his well deserved own end. A problem I see: The criminal court in Hague doesn't consider death penalty an option nowadays, but I definitely favor Putin being executed. The "hardest" penalty nowadys is lifetime imprisonment. But Nürnberg was an appropriate example how to deal with scum.
What's your theories? Putin possibly being killed by his own people? Tribunal in Hague? A hand-over to the Ukrainian judge system for the rope? A farewell like Hitler?
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
1) Capital punishment is wrong.
2) Putin is a dictator of a superpower. The likelihood he is arrested and sent to the Hague is minimal.
3) Russian dictators die of either old age or violence, trials are show trials when they occur. My guess is he lives out his life naturally.
 

bearfan

Ancient Mariner
1) Capital punishment is wrong.
2) Putin is a dictator of a superpower. The likelihood he is arrested and sent to the Hague is minimal.
3) Russian dictators die of either old age or violence, trials are show trials when they occur. My guess is he lives out his life naturally.
Any trial would have to be in russia for sure .. unlikely, but would be nice
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
There's no way Russia could have some sort of fair trial. They'd do a show trial at best. Most likely Putin just falls down the stairs, like so many generals and oligarchs before him.
 

Magnus

Pica Serdica
Like it or not, the UN table has always been full of murderers, rapists, and marauders. The level of power required to run a nation, especially a nation on the security council? The UN isn't very successful at preventing war, but it does a huge amount of good around the world, and part of that is because it allows all nations to show up and talk. Sometimes it's bullshit blather - most of the time - but that doesn't stop UNICEF from feeding kids or the IMF from funding critical infrastructure pieces or WHO from subsidizing vaccinations in Africa.
Apologies, cannot see how exactly UNICEF feeding kids is related to kicking that lethal parody of a state, russia, out of the UN?
 

LooseCannon

Enterprise-class aircraft carrier
Staff member
Apologies, cannot see how exactly UNICEF feeding kids is related to kicking that lethal parody of a state, russia, out of the UN?
The UN works because it has universal membership. If we turn it into a club that excludes a superpower, it'll fragment and become even more useless.
It's why I also don't support kicking Russia out of, say, the International Space Station.
 
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