Osama bin Laden Killed
- Thread starter Cornfed Hick
- Start date
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Someone on the news last night (forgot who) had mentioned that in Afghanistan some mid level officials that surrendered blew themselves up once captured and soldiers (I guess sailors in this case) had been much more leary for some time. Given how long the fire fight had been, bin Laden had a chance to do this. Supposedly the wife ran at the Americans and was shot in the leg. I am also sure there was some urgency to collect much data/leaders as possibly and get out of there.
I agree that everyone deserves a fair trial in the US, but a few points. Bin Laden, was not a run of the mill murderer/rapist/street thug, he's taken credit for 9/11 and many other attacks. I would have like to have seen him captured, but I do think he is one of a very few special cases. I also do think if he were anxious to surrender, they would brought him back alive and straight to Gitmo.
I agree that everyone deserves a fair trial in the US, but a few points. Bin Laden, was not a run of the mill murderer/rapist/street thug, he's taken credit for 9/11 and many other attacks. I would have like to have seen him captured, but I do think he is one of a very few special cases. I also do think if he were anxious to surrender, they would brought him back alive and straight to Gitmo.
There's a lot of graves in Germany filled with Nazi soldiers who "resisted" when they were supposed to surrender.
There's a lot of graves in France and the Netherlands and Poland filled with fighters who "resisted" when they were supposed to surrender. And India, Russia, anywhere there has ever been a battleground.
And so on. War's not fair to the loser, and every country represented here has some cold-blooded murder in their veins somewhere along the line.
I dunno. I'm of the opinion that Osama bin Laden wasn't a criminal, as much as he was an enemy combatant/fighter. The rules are different there - if you don't put up your hands and surrender, if you even PUSH the man who's there with a gun, a soldier is probably going to shoot you. They're not police, they're soldiers, fighting an enemy, and their job is to kill. That being said, my preference remains that he was arrested, tried, and locked in a deep, dark hole for the rest of his life - he did, whatever he did, and got killed because of it.
I'm not happy he's dead, but I am glad to know that he can no longer do that thing for which he had a unique gift: organizing the death of westerners. And I am not that sad that the guy got shot.
There's a lot of graves in France and the Netherlands and Poland filled with fighters who "resisted" when they were supposed to surrender. And India, Russia, anywhere there has ever been a battleground.
And so on. War's not fair to the loser, and every country represented here has some cold-blooded murder in their veins somewhere along the line.
I dunno. I'm of the opinion that Osama bin Laden wasn't a criminal, as much as he was an enemy combatant/fighter. The rules are different there - if you don't put up your hands and surrender, if you even PUSH the man who's there with a gun, a soldier is probably going to shoot you. They're not police, they're soldiers, fighting an enemy, and their job is to kill. That being said, my preference remains that he was arrested, tried, and locked in a deep, dark hole for the rest of his life - he did, whatever he did, and got killed because of it.
I'm not happy he's dead, but I am glad to know that he can no longer do that thing for which he had a unique gift: organizing the death of westerners. And I am not that sad that the guy got shot.
So, I guess its a point of view, how this is 'justice' or not?
If this was a police action in downtown L.A., and he was killed, there would be a lot of talk about police brutality.
However, as an enemy combatant, in a war against our country, those same laws aren't in affect? People die in war, and that is what happened to him, right?
If this was a police action in downtown L.A., and he was killed, there would be a lot of talk about police brutality.
However, as an enemy combatant, in a war against our country, those same laws aren't in affect? People die in war, and that is what happened to him, right?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Yeah, let's make it simpler and simpler. People who look critical at this, go deep into detail and have arguments about what exactly stinks in this case.
Justice done or not (which at times seems to look like "punishment is done"), that might be an American way of thinking I am not going to follow that easily.
Justice done or not (which at times seems to look like "punishment is done"), that might be an American way of thinking I am not going to follow that easily.
I don't think that makes it simpler: it is what it is. Osama wasn't a criminal - he ran a multinational organization with state support that has declared war on the US and their allies.
I don't call it justice. It ain't justice. Justice was a trial. Hermann Goring was brought to justice - Heinrich Himmler was not. Adolf Eichmann was brought to justice - Reinhard Heydrich wasn't. It's a killing - the US killed the fighter opposing them. It's some closure, but I think a trial would have been better in that aspect.
It's not a drug dealer in LA, or even a murderer in Waco, and to treat him like that...well, then they should have sent the SWAT team, not the Navy SEALs.
I don't call it justice. It ain't justice. Justice was a trial. Hermann Goring was brought to justice - Heinrich Himmler was not. Adolf Eichmann was brought to justice - Reinhard Heydrich wasn't. It's a killing - the US killed the fighter opposing them. It's some closure, but I think a trial would have been better in that aspect.
It's not a drug dealer in LA, or even a murderer in Waco, and to treat him like that...well, then they should have sent the SWAT team, not the Navy SEALs.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Alright, I take back the "simpler" comment, but that my second part of that post, I think this touches an earlier discussion I had with Wasted (and others) about America's fascination with blame, feeding their passion for punishment. That dancing on the street, the "proud to be American", the "Born in the USA" chanting, the superbowl atmosphere etc. is really something that disgusts, amazes and annoys other Western civilized people, you bet on it.
LooseCannon said:
A couple of years ago, a member of the German terrorist organisation Rote Armee Fraktion (RAF) was freed from prison, because her sentence was up. There was a public outcry, because people thought that was mild treatment. However, it wasn't. The terrorist was sentenced on the charge of murder, because no legislation for terrorism existed at the time she was charged. She sat the entire term, and there was no parole - it was, in fact, much stricter than what murderers usually get. And to this day, the counter-terrorist unit in Germany is part of the federal police, not the army.
And that's what I think it should be like. Special charges for terrorists makes their crime special, dignifying it in their eyes and the eyes of their followers. However, terrorism is nothing but ordinary murder, and terrorists should be charged as ordinary murderers - or ordinary mass-murderers in cases like bin Laden's. The saying goes, "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." A murderer, however, remains a murderer. Supporting that, is much more difficult.
Forostar said:
Don't mistake me for dancing in the streets or anything like that.
We do, however have a passion for Justice-- you call it punishment, I call it rules for living in a world we wish was civilized, but isn't. A lot of my country still lives by the 'eye for an eye' saying. I'm not stating that it is a correct view, but it is their view, none the less. Also, we have a very odd perspective on war/terror-- we are not used to someone doing something to us on our home turf. That was something that happened to other countries. Now, don't read anything into that-- I'm not saying it is right or anything like that, I'm just saying it felt weird to us, and we did want revenge for what happened.
Many people feel that the thousands of people killed in 9/11 are now avenged. We can sometimes live in a movie plot/story book fantasy where the bad guy gets what is coming to him.
I will say that we felt like (and were told) that we were in a 'war'. I totally get Per's position on terror vs war. But it is hard, sometimes, when someone that controls an army states that we are at war with them. I really think it is a fine line between a country declaring war and a man with his own army-- an army is an army, right?
I don't know, but I don't think it is very black and white.
Wasted The Great said:
Quoted for emphasis. I've talked to a number of people about this, and they all seem to have their minds made up whether this was right or not.
I agree with you that it is difficult to say "we are not at war" when the opponent says we are. But that is the problem with it - if you get down on their level, you lose your superiority. Which also means you lose your authority to define the standards by which yours and your opponent's actions are going to be judged. If you agree that you are at war with Al Qaeda, Islamism or whatever, you indirectly legitimise their side.
Anyway, it's easy to say things, and easy to form opinions when you're outside of it all. So take what I say with a pinch of salt, please.
Oh, I agree with you on the different levels of communication and authority. Its no different than dealing with children. Sometimes you have to maintain being an adult to emphasize your authority. Sometimes, you have to get down to their level to make a point.
Yeah, its not really cut and dried. No one will probably ever 100% agree on it.
I prefer to live in a Just society.
Yeah, its not really cut and dried. No one will probably ever 100% agree on it.
I prefer to live in a Just society.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
This is sickening. I cannot believe you people are worried about the significance of the death, was he really shot, why did they give him burial at sea and all that nonsense. The REAL questions and the ONLY questions should be: When is the movie coming out? Who will play Bin Laden? Jeff Goldblum? Who will the Navy SEAL team Six be? Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Dolf Lundgren and Vin Deisel with John Cena as back up? Will Nicolas Cage reprise his role as the firefighter from 9/11? Will be directed by Michael Bay or Peter Jackson?
FOCUS PEOPLE! FOCUS!
FOCUS PEOPLE! FOCUS!
LOLOnhell said:
I thought the same... Here are my suggestions:
this guy (but with longer beard) - Osama Bin Laden
this guy - his bodyguard
Will Smith - Barack Obama
Julianne Moore - Hilary Clinton
Navy seals team:
Ben Affleck - random government representative, main character
Liv Tyler - his girlfriend
Danny Trejo - random tough guy who lives in Pakistan and shows the team way to the house
Dennis Quaid - random soldier who leads the team. At first he hates Ben Affleck, but at the end dies to save Ben Affleck so that he could return to Liv Tyler
Michelle Rodriguez - tough female soldier
Rhys Ifans - a soldier who's always joking around
this guy - soldier close to retirement, always angry and annoying, dies quickly
this guy - random soldier that everybody likes, dies quickly
this guy - young soldier, dies in a painful way (Quaid screams "DON'T YOU DIE ON ME!!!!!")
+ a lot of redshirts
Onhell said:
I'd like to see Sam Jackson as Obama.
Ewan McGregor as the SEAL team leader
Hayden Christensen as OBL
and Senator Palpatine...erm, Ian Mcdiarmid as Donald Trump
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
LooseCannon said:
Um, pretty sure that conspiring to hijack a civilian aircraft and fly it into a civilian building, killing thousands of noncombatants, is a "crime" in the U.S. I agree with most of what you write, Loosey, but that statement is indefensible. Now, if your point is that Osama bin Laden had no right to due process because he had declared war on the U.S. and attacked it, you may be on to something there. I frankly think this was a "kill" mission from the get-go, and it doesn't bother me in the least.
On a related note, I was reminded that a friend of my wife's family is a member of Navy SEALTeam 6, and apparently he had been working on a big, highly sensitive project since August, had been training in the U.S. for a while, and then told his folks he was shipping out to Afghanistan a few weeks ago. Call me crazy, but I might know the dude who shot ObL.
NightProwler666 said:
I object. I'd rather have Omid Djalili as the annoying Pakistani who shows the team the way to the house on promise of a major reward and is screwed in an hilariously ironic way in the end.
Moscow: Russian security forces have killed a top local Al Qaeda leader, who also had a Pakistani visa, in the restive Caucasus province of Chechnya in a special operation.
According to the National Anti-terrorism Committee (NAC) Al Qaeda envoy, a Turkish national Doger Sevdet aka Abdullah Kurd, was killed in a fighting in the hilly forest area of Chechnya's Vedensky district in the course of a joint operation by the FSB commando and Interior Ministry Troops on Tuesday, a day after US forces hunted down Osama bin Laden.
According to NAC Abdullah Kurd had taken over the al Qaeda Caucasus envoy's job after the liquidation his predecessor Moganned on April 11.
His Turkish passport bearing Georgian, Azerbaijani and Pakistani visas was also recovered from his belongings.
NAC said according to the FSB data, Kurd had crossed into Russia's Northern Caucasus in 1991 from the Pankisi Gorge of neighbouring Georgia and was a member of the so called 'Arab Groups' of al Qaeda in Chechnya under the command of Khattab, Abu al Walid and Abu Khavs, killed in the past by the federal security forces.
After the neutralisation of Abu Khavs in 2006 Abdullah Kurd was number two al Qaeda man in the Caucasus under the Saudi national with nom de guerre Moganned and after latter's killing on April 11took over the coordination of Al Qaeda activities, which included the control and disbursement of finances coming from abroad for terrorist attacks in the region.
NAC said Abdullah Kurd was directly involved in planning and carrying out major terror attacks and murders of innocent civilians and law enforcement officers.
In other news: No dead Bin Laden pictures - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13287977
According to the National Anti-terrorism Committee (NAC) Al Qaeda envoy, a Turkish national Doger Sevdet aka Abdullah Kurd, was killed in a fighting in the hilly forest area of Chechnya's Vedensky district in the course of a joint operation by the FSB commando and Interior Ministry Troops on Tuesday, a day after US forces hunted down Osama bin Laden.
According to NAC Abdullah Kurd had taken over the al Qaeda Caucasus envoy's job after the liquidation his predecessor Moganned on April 11.
His Turkish passport bearing Georgian, Azerbaijani and Pakistani visas was also recovered from his belongings.
NAC said according to the FSB data, Kurd had crossed into Russia's Northern Caucasus in 1991 from the Pankisi Gorge of neighbouring Georgia and was a member of the so called 'Arab Groups' of al Qaeda in Chechnya under the command of Khattab, Abu al Walid and Abu Khavs, killed in the past by the federal security forces.
After the neutralisation of Abu Khavs in 2006 Abdullah Kurd was number two al Qaeda man in the Caucasus under the Saudi national with nom de guerre Moganned and after latter's killing on April 11took over the coordination of Al Qaeda activities, which included the control and disbursement of finances coming from abroad for terrorist attacks in the region.
NAC said Abdullah Kurd was directly involved in planning and carrying out major terror attacks and murders of innocent civilians and law enforcement officers.
In other news: No dead Bin Laden pictures - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13287977