Guys. I don't think you're ever going to be in agreement on this one.
Official Tennis thread
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
I'm fine with that. As long as I hear a sound argument as to why I'm wrong.
Shadow, in his only post on the debate, came up with the only sound argument for Sampras > Federer so far. Faster grass courts.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
More arguments on why Sampras can be seen as at least as good a grass player as Federer. Opponents.
The value of a grass Wimbledon title won by Sampras in 1993, beating slam champs Agassi, Becker and Courier in succession, is unanimously higher than Federer's 2003 Wimbledon in which he defeated Bjorkman, Roddick and Phillipoussis in his last 3 matches.
This is because the quality of competition Sampras was facing was much higher for that particular slam, than Federer’s. Most people would agree that Sampras’ slam counts far more than Fed’s because it was tougher to accomplish.
@Shadow
yep:
By 2002, the ATP hit the last nail on the coffin of serve-and-volley, by homogenizing balls and most surfaces. Simultaneously, advancements in polyester string technology helped counter S&V to a large extent. What this did for Wimbledon, was that the balls stopped bouncing as low as it did before 2002 because of surface change. Ed Seaward (groundsman at SW19, the Wimbledon lawns) said that in 2002, they changed the soil and grass-type on Wimbledon.
The consequence was that the ball bounced higher, and made the game slower, taking away the advantage from the server. The similarity of the nature of the bounce to a medium-fast hardcourt (which is the staple diet of the ATP) led rise to the term "homogenization".
This brought about the demise of the experienced serve-and-volley specialist (Sampras, Henman, Rafter, Pioline, Krajicek) rather abruptly, and made a vacuum for younger players like Hewitt, Federer, Roddick and Safin to dominate on the more baseliner-friendly grass, and with powerful polyester strings.
In Sampras’ prime years from 1993-2000, he had a formidable array of great grass-friendly-players in Becker, Edberg, Ivanisevic, Pioline, Krajicek, Stich, Rafter, Henman and even all-court players like Courier and Agassi.
In Federer’s prime years from 2003-2010, on grass he was facing only great hard-court-players in Kiefer, Hewitt, Roddick, Berdych, Tsonga and one all-court player in Nadal. Hewitt and Roddick may have considered grass their favourite over hards, but even then, it's only them (2) versus 8 great players from Sampras' time who loved grass.
What’s more, from 2003-2007, when he won 5 Wimbledons in a row, he had only Roddick and Nadal. All the top players mentioned earlier, from Sampras’ era, were rudely dumped out.
The value of a grass Wimbledon title won by Sampras in 1993, beating slam champs Agassi, Becker and Courier in succession, is unanimously higher than Federer's 2003 Wimbledon in which he defeated Bjorkman, Roddick and Phillipoussis in his last 3 matches.
This is because the quality of competition Sampras was facing was much higher for that particular slam, than Federer’s. Most people would agree that Sampras’ slam counts far more than Fed’s because it was tougher to accomplish.
@Shadow
yep:
By 2002, the ATP hit the last nail on the coffin of serve-and-volley, by homogenizing balls and most surfaces. Simultaneously, advancements in polyester string technology helped counter S&V to a large extent. What this did for Wimbledon, was that the balls stopped bouncing as low as it did before 2002 because of surface change. Ed Seaward (groundsman at SW19, the Wimbledon lawns) said that in 2002, they changed the soil and grass-type on Wimbledon.
The consequence was that the ball bounced higher, and made the game slower, taking away the advantage from the server. The similarity of the nature of the bounce to a medium-fast hardcourt (which is the staple diet of the ATP) led rise to the term "homogenization".
This brought about the demise of the experienced serve-and-volley specialist (Sampras, Henman, Rafter, Pioline, Krajicek) rather abruptly, and made a vacuum for younger players like Hewitt, Federer, Roddick and Safin to dominate on the more baseliner-friendly grass, and with powerful polyester strings.
In Sampras’ prime years from 1993-2000, he had a formidable array of great grass-friendly-players in Becker, Edberg, Ivanisevic, Pioline, Krajicek, Stich, Rafter, Henman and even all-court players like Courier and Agassi.
In Federer’s prime years from 2003-2010, on grass he was facing only great hard-court-players in Kiefer, Hewitt, Roddick, Berdych, Tsonga and one all-court player in Nadal. Hewitt and Roddick may have considered grass their favourite over hards, but even then, it's only them (2) versus 8 great players from Sampras' time who loved grass.
What’s more, from 2003-2007, when he won 5 Wimbledons in a row, he had only Roddick and Nadal. All the top players mentioned earlier, from Sampras’ era, were rudely dumped out.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Now that's a better argument. Finally talking about grass.
I think the outlier there is Roddick. Sampras was Roddick's idol and their playing styles are actually very close. Roddick was an incredible server and succeeded on grass even after the changes made to the ball. He matched up with Federer quite often (3 times on Wimbledon finals) and Federer basically toyed with him in most matchups.
Would playing in the 90s format give an edge to Sampras? Maybe. But even as an inexperienced player in his teens, in the pre-ball change era, Federer was able to combat service/volley specialists. And that's where my initial argument comes into play. Federer was so incredibly versatile. He was a fantastic service returner. And he had the greatest passing shot of all time. A good return combined with the ability to go past behind a player who's waiting near the net for a volley is a service/volley player's worst nightmare.
Agassi, for example, quite possibly was the greatest service returner we've seen. But he didn't have even the resemblance of the passing shot Federer had and Sampras succeeded over him. Federer did something that grass had never seen. He combined a precise serve with ability to return services brilliantly AND added a GOAT level passing shot. This is the reason I started out with "Federer played at levels we've never seen on grass before".
I think the outlier there is Roddick. Sampras was Roddick's idol and their playing styles are actually very close. Roddick was an incredible server and succeeded on grass even after the changes made to the ball. He matched up with Federer quite often (3 times on Wimbledon finals) and Federer basically toyed with him in most matchups.
Would playing in the 90s format give an edge to Sampras? Maybe. But even as an inexperienced player in his teens, in the pre-ball change era, Federer was able to combat service/volley specialists. And that's where my initial argument comes into play. Federer was so incredibly versatile. He was a fantastic service returner. And he had the greatest passing shot of all time. A good return combined with the ability to go past behind a player who's waiting near the net for a volley is a service/volley player's worst nightmare.
Agassi, for example, quite possibly was the greatest service returner we've seen. But he didn't have even the resemblance of the passing shot Federer had and Sampras succeeded over him. Federer did something that grass had never seen. He combined a precise serve with ability to return services brilliantly AND added a GOAT level passing shot. This is the reason I started out with "Federer played at levels we've never seen on grass before".
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
A sensation is in the air in Moscow. Two days ago I posted about an impossible stunt in 1993. And what a coincidence, something in this vein might happen again. At least the following is pretty impressive as well... if they manage:
Fed Cup:
Russia - Netherlands: 0-2!
Today we'll see if they'll win but things are looking good!
If we win, we're in the semi finals! In about a minute Kiki Bertens will meet Svetlana Koeznetsova. Come on!
Svetlana Koeznetsova (30) played 4 Grand Slam singles finals and won two (US Open, 2004 & Roland Garros, 2009).
Highest ranking No. 2 (September 10, 2007)
Current ranking No. 17 (February 1, 2016)
Kiki Bertens (24), much more successful with doubles has 1 WTA singles title (Grand Prix SAR La Princesse Lalla Meryem, Fes, Morocco in 2012) and in Grand Slams she never came further than a 4th round @ Roland Garros in 2014.
Highest ranking No. 41 (15 April 2013)
Current ranking No. 104 (3 January 2016)
(Coach of the Dutch team: Paul Haarhuis, who played a big role in beating Spain in 1993)
EDIT:
YES!!! 6-1 & 6-4!
On to the semis!
Fed Cup:
Russia - Netherlands: 0-2!
Today we'll see if they'll win but things are looking good!
If we win, we're in the semi finals! In about a minute Kiki Bertens will meet Svetlana Koeznetsova. Come on!
Svetlana Koeznetsova (30) played 4 Grand Slam singles finals and won two (US Open, 2004 & Roland Garros, 2009).
Highest ranking No. 2 (September 10, 2007)
Current ranking No. 17 (February 1, 2016)
Kiki Bertens (24), much more successful with doubles has 1 WTA singles title (Grand Prix SAR La Princesse Lalla Meryem, Fes, Morocco in 2012) and in Grand Slams she never came further than a 4th round @ Roland Garros in 2014.
Highest ranking No. 41 (15 April 2013)
Current ranking No. 104 (3 January 2016)
(Coach of the Dutch team: Paul Haarhuis, who played a big role in beating Spain in 1993)
EDIT:
YES!!! 6-1 & 6-4!
On to the semis!
Last edited:
Nadal withdraws from Roland Garros, wrist injury.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
I wonder what he's been doing with his wrist...
Tennis.
No, that's his elbow.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
That's what they call it?
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
He's also going blind.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Kiki Bertens reaches the semi final at Roland Garros! The quarter final was already a rare event for the Dutch, on this tournament, but a Grand Slam semi final (singles)... well, it's almost 40 years ago since a Dutch woman made it that far.
1926 Kea Bouman, Roland Garros (semi final)
1927 Kea Bouman, Roland Garros (eventually WINS the tournament!)
1928 Kea Bouman, Roland Garros (semi final)
1971 Marijke Schaar, Roland Garros (semi final)
1977 Betty Stöve, Wimbledon (eventually reaches the final; wins a.o. from Martina Navratilova)
1977 Betty Stöve, US Open (semi final; loses from Chris Evert)
2016 Kiki Bertens, Roland Garros
Tomorrow, next opponent: Serena Williams!
1926 Kea Bouman, Roland Garros (semi final)
1927 Kea Bouman, Roland Garros (eventually WINS the tournament!)
1928 Kea Bouman, Roland Garros (semi final)
1971 Marijke Schaar, Roland Garros (semi final)
1977 Betty Stöve, Wimbledon (eventually reaches the final; wins a.o. from Martina Navratilova)
1977 Betty Stöve, US Open (semi final; loses from Chris Evert)
2016 Kiki Bertens, Roland Garros
Tomorrow, next opponent: Serena Williams!
Last edited:
No comments on Djokovic achieving a Career Grand Slam? 
Nadal withdraws from Wimbledon too.
Nadal withdraws from Wimbledon too.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Hopefully Murray or Federer beats him at Wimbledon, just to keep things reasonably interesting.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Murray has Lendl back in his coaching team:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36511186
Sounds like a good move.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36511186
Sounds like a good move.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
And Wawrinka has taken Krajicek (Wimbledon winner 1996) in his team. Perhaps not a bad move either.
As I'm always looking to improve on court, I would like to take this opportunity to announce as of immediately that I have added Richard Krajicek to my existing coaching staff to help during the grass court season for the next 4 weeks. Magnus, Yannick and I are really excited about the new addition to our team - adding a former Wimbledon Champion can only further my knowledge and understanding of the grass. It's a real privilege and honour to add such a champion to my corner.
CriedWhenBrucieLeft
Meme Only Account
Crazy result. Good chance for everyone else, including Murray.