Official Star Wars Thread
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I agree with the above points. It's the same as people telling me to "read the book!" (or recently with The Witcher, "play the game!").
What? Just because he's not modern-day Marvel villain bad, doesn't mean he isn't murdering underlings for failures or choking out the captain of the blockade runner or shooting down roughly 1/2 of the Rebel fleet.
He doesn't kill anyone in Jedi that I can think of, though (excepting the Emperor), but that's because Lucas wanted to channel his eventual face turn.
What? Just because he's not modern-day Marvel villain bad, doesn't mean he isn't murdering underlings for failures or choking out the captain of the blockade runner or shooting down roughly 1/2 of the Rebel fleet.
He doesn't kill anyone in Jedi that I can think of, though (excepting the Emperor), but that's because Lucas wanted to channel his eventual face turn.
Wogmidget
Shitpost bot
That's a bit harsh; Maul only "needed" Clone Wars (and I think that describing it merely as supplementary material into which the writers had to place Maul does an immense disservice to both the quality of the product and the esteem in which it is held by many a fan) because TPM needed a villain to be prematurely killed off at the end
Maybe I should re-phrase that - Vader kills far more Imperial grunts than rebels with his own two hands. I know he blows up a load of X-Wings, but that doesn't have quite the same visceral impact as ye olde force choke
Maul could have been developed sufficiently in Phantom Menace or he could have not been killed off prematurely. The Force Awakens provides an example of how much depth you can give your main villain in the span of just one film. Phantom Menace, and Maul, fail in this regard.
I am not making a judgment on the quality of the shows, or denying their place in the canon, but they absolutely are supplementary materials. Perhaps it is a sign of the times, but it seems to me that good storytelling is being bypassed in favor of franchising. A film and its characters should stand on their own without needing additional content to be fleshed out. I know Star Wars' expanded universe has existed for a long time, but the original appeal of that came from the fact that Lucas had created this rich universe with many possibilities and mysteries. At some point, that shifted into a vehicle for correcting mistakes and fleshing out things that really should've been fleshed out in the prequels. Regardless, you shouldn't have to consume additional content to understand the source material.
There is something to be said about the amount of on-screen, face to face killings done by Ren vs Vader.
This also made Ren's redemption seem much more sloppy and forced than Vader's. He is a brutal murderer in The Force Awakens and doubles down in The Last Jedi (destroying a ship that he knows his mother is in, making an unhinged call for a mass firing squad on Luke Skywalker). Rise of Skywalker opens with him massacring some village to get the wayfinder. He really crossed the path of no return and we only saw real conflict in the last film.
Wogmidget
Shitpost bot
Eh? I didn't detect a great deal of character depth in either whiny emo kid Kylo or discount emperor Snoke, but that's beside the point
I wouldn't say good storytelling has been abandoned entirely, but perhaps it's been pushed out of big-budget cinema and relegated to so-called "supplementary" materials (not that blockbuster films being devoid of story is a new phenomenon). I think the problem Star Wars has now is that the expanded content is so sprawling and richly detailed (it's worth noting that I'm most definitely not an expert on such matters) that it has become impenetrable to the average Joe, and that the current work-around is unfortunately just to gloss over it all
In fairness the prequels did flesh a lot of stuff out within its main focus (rise of Palpatine, fall of the Jedi), but obviously they're imperfect.
The fact that you can describe him as "whiny emo kid" kinda makes my point for me. In The Force Awakens you get a backstory (he is Han and Leia's son), a sense of conflict, and clear personality traits (ruthless, unhinged, driven by hatred and a lust for power). There is also enough left open for further development in sequels. With Maul we get some cool makeup and a double-bladed lightsaber.
This, this a thousand times.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
I disagree with this opinion. I am not familiar with the SW EU, but Maul being a glorified stuntman is very different from a character based on an adapted work.
If a screenwriter and/or director fail to adapt a character well, then yes, READ THE BOOK. That's why poor adaptations piss me off as it turns many people off of the source material.
As for The Witcher, you don't have to play the game, you could just read the books
He is not a character based on an adapted work. He originated in the film, and then fans inevitably come around to tell me to go ahead and watch all this supplemental material that were not around when the film was made. The character should have something to him in the films.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Oh good, then my point stands. you can't compare him to an adapted character. people saying "read the book!" defending an adapted character is valid. In his case, yeah, no. I see your and Mosh's point.
I liked Ren's character more as a result of The Rise of Skywalker.
I agree it would have been a lot more difficult to do character development with Maul, beyond him looking very cool and demonic. Still, I'd have been far happier with him sticking around longer and not passing the mantle to Grievous and Dooku. I didn't get much out of them at all.
He always struck me as more of an underling than a convincing ultimate supervillain and I'm happy it was someone like Palpatine taking on that role.
I agree it would have been a lot more difficult to do character development with Maul, beyond him looking very cool and demonic. Still, I'd have been far happier with him sticking around longer and not passing the mantle to Grievous and Dooku. I didn't get much out of them at all.
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
So, The Rise Of Skywalker was serviceable and utterly predictable, much like The Force Awakens was. Typical J.J. Abrams, all flash and minimal substance, with no new ideas to offer. (For all of The Last Jedi’s warts, at least it served up a few surprises.)
In the end, I’m not sure what real purpose Finn and Poe served, which is odd considering they were the main ensemble cast. And what little story was there was ultimately about Rey and Kylo retreading the broad strokes of the original trilogy, especially in episodes VII and IX. The whole thing came off as a bit pointless, other than a cash grab for Disney. Oh well.
In the end, I’m not sure what real purpose Finn and Poe served, which is odd considering they were the main ensemble cast. And what little story was there was ultimately about Rey and Kylo retreading the broad strokes of the original trilogy, especially in episodes VII and IX. The whole thing came off as a bit pointless, other than a cash grab for Disney. Oh well.
Randalf
Ancient Mariner
I pretty much agree with the above, except that I actually love The Last Jedi quite a lot. Sure, it had some issues and some individual scenes had a lot of problems, but overall, I think it had a lot of substance for a Star Wars movie and I absolutely loved the "Grumpy Old Man" Luke.
These three movies do not blend in together as a trilogy that well and The Last Jedi definitely made that a bit harder, but at the same time, I think some of it's themes are pretty spot on, such as acknowledging the issues with the "light & dark" dualism and the fact that when the same unfortunate cycle goes on time and again, there might be a lot to improve in how it's been dealt with
As for the trilogy overall, it did a lot of things right, but ended up landing in a bit too safe zone. Calculated as it is - in a very Disney way - it's crafted very well though. Still, I wish that it was a bit more planned out and daring.
One of the problems, I dare say, was that when taking a route they took - discarding some of George Lucas' concepts - they didn't really go all the way. Instead, they more or less tried to play with George's cards and adding some of their own into the mix, but they tried so hard to make it seem like something George might do and people would love that it almost turned against them. In many ways, JJ's films remind of Jurassic World; enjoyable and nostalgic as hell, but very deliberately trying to be a "Spielberg doppelganger." JJ's Star Wars films kind of step into the very same pitfall. That's why I like The Last Jedi so much; while it was bit of a deconstruction of... everything, it had substance and meaning in most if not all of the adventurous turns it took. It dared to be it's own, different thing, and through that, it ended up honoring most of the Star Wars traditions and in-universe logic in a very fresh yet grim way.
As mentioned, I think all of these new movies are beautifully crafted, enjoyable and in many ways, done in a way the prequels should have been done back in the day. Then again, they falter when it comes to delivering actual substance, meaning and freshness.
Oh well. Actual reviews coming later!
The greatest teacher, failure is.
These three movies do not blend in together as a trilogy that well and The Last Jedi definitely made that a bit harder, but at the same time, I think some of it's themes are pretty spot on, such as acknowledging the issues with the "light & dark" dualism and the fact that when the same unfortunate cycle goes on time and again, there might be a lot to improve in how it's been dealt with
As for the trilogy overall, it did a lot of things right, but ended up landing in a bit too safe zone. Calculated as it is - in a very Disney way - it's crafted very well though. Still, I wish that it was a bit more planned out and daring.
One of the problems, I dare say, was that when taking a route they took - discarding some of George Lucas' concepts - they didn't really go all the way. Instead, they more or less tried to play with George's cards and adding some of their own into the mix, but they tried so hard to make it seem like something George might do and people would love that it almost turned against them. In many ways, JJ's films remind of Jurassic World; enjoyable and nostalgic as hell, but very deliberately trying to be a "Spielberg doppelganger." JJ's Star Wars films kind of step into the very same pitfall. That's why I like The Last Jedi so much; while it was bit of a deconstruction of... everything, it had substance and meaning in most if not all of the adventurous turns it took. It dared to be it's own, different thing, and through that, it ended up honoring most of the Star Wars traditions and in-universe logic in a very fresh yet grim way.
As mentioned, I think all of these new movies are beautifully crafted, enjoyable and in many ways, done in a way the prequels should have been done back in the day. Then again, they falter when it comes to delivering actual substance, meaning and freshness.
Oh well. Actual reviews coming later!
The greatest teacher, failure is.
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I would rather watch the terrible parts of The Last Jedi than any part of the prequels. Even the cool (boring) lightsaber fights.
Randalf
Ancient Mariner
I totally get that. I do enjoy prequels to some extent, especially Revenge of the Sith, but there's a ton of problems in them and ended up as often boring CGI-mess. Even the mentioned lightsaber fights lacked edge and sense of danger, not to even mention how were stretched most of them ended up being.
Prequels are great story that just got told badly, where as the sequels are a lacking and much more hollow story, but crafted and produced rather well.
I wouldn't say the prequels are great story, either. They're really just quite bad. Maybe the outline of the story structure is salvageable.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Prequels are beyond bad. Especially the first one. Jar jar binks as a device that sells Star Wars merchandise to little kids, lame Anakin back story that attempts to justify his actions, where guy gets told by elders he can't be with a girl and that turns him into a mass murderer of children, a story fit for the cringiest 14 year old emo. Attempt to do SF by introducing "midichlorians" (when you spill chlorine over your guitar pedal board, weird things happen)
Wogmidget
Shitpost bot
Hang on a sec, don't you go talking shite about the prequels. I mean, I accept they're flawed, but claiming that they're worse the the abysmal trainwreck that was The Last Jedi is just not on.
The Phantom Menace - I firmly believe there's a great ~70min movie hiding in here surrounded by superfluous, badly paced padding. The first 10 minutes or so manages to both establish the plot well and provide some light(ish) entertainment. From there on, unfortunately, the film takes ages to jump to the next worthwhile scene, and everyone spends far too much time on Tatooine doing not very much (I can't even defend the bloated podracing scenes, despite how much fun it was as an N64 game). As disposable comic-grade villains go, Maul is right up there, and his due with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon makes for a superb climax; by the same token, it could've been that much better without the space battle and droids vs Gungans constantly getting in the way. In short, if you strip away the unnecessary sequences and exposition about midichlorians, you have nice, fun SW film.
Attack of the Clones - I admit, it's been a while since I gave this one a look, but from what I can remember McGregor's Obi-Wan really carries this one. Once it gets going, the plot contains the makings of a properly good movie, and even though the final product doesn't fully deliver on this promise it's still watchable. Annoying teenage Anakin's hijinks with Natalie Portman do get in the way of the important business of secret clone army production and the synthesis of the separatist faction, but so long as it stays on message it's a decent movie. I won't argue that there's a masterpiece hiding in there, but for the most part it's watchable and could benefit from some further editing
Revenge of the Sith - Aside from being one of the most endlessly quotable films ever made, It also makes for fine viewing. Jar Jar and Padme have thankfully been sidelined for this one, Anakin is far less irritating, and there are no major sideplots to get in the way of the soon-to-be-Emperor's scheming. I admit, the last ~20 minutes is not only unnecessary but also spoils the OT if you watch in episodic order (not to mention that the time should've been spent earlier, fleshing out Anakin's fall). Additionally, you also get the impression that this big war has brought about some very un-Jedi-ish traits in a Jedi order that probably should've seen it coming under normal circumstances, and that Palpatine has pulled every string at his disposal to isolate and lure in Anakin. In short: it's great.
On a final note, it's worth noting that many of the plot points in episodes II and III are fleshed out and made more credible in a certain animated series that some of you lot clearly can't be bothered with, but we've already had this argument.
The Phantom Menace - I firmly believe there's a great ~70min movie hiding in here surrounded by superfluous, badly paced padding. The first 10 minutes or so manages to both establish the plot well and provide some light(ish) entertainment. From there on, unfortunately, the film takes ages to jump to the next worthwhile scene, and everyone spends far too much time on Tatooine doing not very much (I can't even defend the bloated podracing scenes, despite how much fun it was as an N64 game). As disposable comic-grade villains go, Maul is right up there, and his due with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon makes for a superb climax; by the same token, it could've been that much better without the space battle and droids vs Gungans constantly getting in the way. In short, if you strip away the unnecessary sequences and exposition about midichlorians, you have nice, fun SW film.
Attack of the Clones - I admit, it's been a while since I gave this one a look, but from what I can remember McGregor's Obi-Wan really carries this one. Once it gets going, the plot contains the makings of a properly good movie, and even though the final product doesn't fully deliver on this promise it's still watchable. Annoying teenage Anakin's hijinks with Natalie Portman do get in the way of the important business of secret clone army production and the synthesis of the separatist faction, but so long as it stays on message it's a decent movie. I won't argue that there's a masterpiece hiding in there, but for the most part it's watchable and could benefit from some further editing
Revenge of the Sith - Aside from being one of the most endlessly quotable films ever made, It also makes for fine viewing. Jar Jar and Padme have thankfully been sidelined for this one, Anakin is far less irritating, and there are no major sideplots to get in the way of the soon-to-be-Emperor's scheming. I admit, the last ~20 minutes is not only unnecessary but also spoils the OT if you watch in episodic order (not to mention that the time should've been spent earlier, fleshing out Anakin's fall). Additionally, you also get the impression that this big war has brought about some very un-Jedi-ish traits in a Jedi order that probably should've seen it coming under normal circumstances, and that Palpatine has pulled every string at his disposal to isolate and lure in Anakin. In short: it's great.
On a final note, it's worth noting that many of the plot points in episodes II and III are fleshed out and made more credible in a certain animated series that some of you lot clearly can't be bothered with, but we've already had this argument.
It's okay, @Wogmidget. You're allowed to be wrong.