Official Football Thread

Recently discovered this.

The Ballon d'Or Dream Team, an all-time all-star team published by France Football on 14 December 2020 after conducting an internet poll of fans to select a football dream team starting from October 2020. The final team was selected by 140 France Football correspondents around the world. A second and a third team were also published.

Taken from Wikipedia, here are the overviews:

The nominations were announced from 5 October 2020 through 19 October 2020. The winners were revealed in 14 December 2020 and lined up in a 3–4–3 formation. Brazil was the country with the highest number of nominated players (20 athletes), ahead of Italy (16), Germany (13), Netherlands (12), Spain (8), England and France (7 each).


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Any (dis)agreements with nominations and/or teams? Do we miss some people ?
 
I am tempted to say that I miss these people in the nominations, although it's not that easy to remove as many people:

Willem van Hanegem
Didier Drogba
Eric Gerets
Carlos Dunga


I also value these non-nominated foreigners very highly for their style / performance:

Jan Ceulemans
Careca
Bryan Robson
Henrik Larsson
Roger Milla
Eric Cantona
Grzegorz Lato
Alain Giresse
Włodzimierz Smolarek
Jean-Pierre Papin
Luis Fernández
Jan Mølby
Manuel Amoros
Pierre Littbarski
Joël Bats
Joseph-Antoine Bell
Chris Waddle

... and these Dutchies (yeah, yeah, I'm Dutch ;--) But hey, we have a lot of good ones to pick from hehe):

Danny Blind
Frank de Boer
Berry van Aerle
Ronald Koeman
Jan Wouters
Giovanni van Bronckhorst
Arnold Mühren
Simon Tahamata (turned Belgian in 1990)
Jan van Beveren

Jan van Beveren was probably the best Dutch goalkeeper ever, but due to a feud with Cruyff and being a victim of manipulation, his career went in the wrong direction. But imagine him in the 1974 team vs Germany, he surely would have done better. That said, however unjust, he missed the 1974 World Cup and Euro 1976 and therefore had not as much success as others. What went wrong? Read on:
Weeks before the World Cup, Van Beveren almost regained full fitness and he was tested by coach Rinus Michels in a friendly match against Hamburger SV. Van Beveren insisted on playing only one half, but Michels refused to give in to his demands and sends him home, later citing a 'lack of character'. The World Cup was played with Jan Jongbloed in the goal instead. Behind the scenes, Van Beveren faced a different issue. A problem emerged with the division of sponsorship money: for the World Cup, the KNVB decided to allocate a greater amount to Johan Cruyff, Johan Neeskens, Willem van Hanegem and Piet Keizer, leaving smaller amounts for the remaining team members. When Van Beveren found out, he informed the team. Subsequently, Cruyff pressured Michels and the KNVB to remove Van Beveren.

After the World Cup, Van Beveren returned to the national team, but the feud with Cruyff remained. With the 'Total Football' successes by Ajax and the Dutch national team, Cruyff amassed considerable influence; most players who sided with him in the national team were managed by his father-in-law Cor Coster. But Van Beveren's refusal to follow suit was deemed insulting by Cruyff. The Cruyff clan, who were backed by then-coach George Knobel, proceeded to antagonize Van Beveren and the other PSV players. Some of them contemplated of quitting the team, but Van Beveren persuaded them to stay. In October 1975, the Dutch team lost a first leg qualification match against Poland with 4–1. In the aftermath, Cruyff publicly blamed the PSV players for the loss, while Van Beveren criticized Cruyff's superstar behavior: before the Poland match, Cruyff personally decided to arrive to the training session a few days late. When Cruyff showed up, Willy van der Kuijlen openly criticized his actions, prompting Cruyff to angrily approach Knobel. He forced him to choose between him or Van der Kuijlen and Van Beveren. Knobel sided with Cruyff and on 13 October, Van Beveren and Van der Kuijlen decided to leave the national team.

Van Beveren refused to play for the national team after these incidents and therefore missed UEFA Euro 1976. He only appeared once more for the national team. In 1977, coach Jan Zwartkruis convinces him to play in a qualifying match against Iceland. It turned out to be his last match in the national team; in the lead-up to the 1978 World Cup, Van Beveren was repeatedly benched during matches. When he approached Zwartkruis about his decisions, the coach responded with "Jan, I'm just being manipulated". It prompted him to announce his international retirement yet again.

Other Dutch giants, but most of these were before my time and more difficult for me to judge well, but what I saw and read was impressive:
  1. Arie Haan
  2. Rinus Israël
  3. Abe Lenstra
  4. Faas Wilkes
  5. Rob Rensenbrink
  6. Piet Keizer
  7. Gerrie Mühren
 
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There are too many people before the video broadcast age.

However to play a devil's advocate here, the athletic performance of humans is always greater in the present because everything is moving forward. Fortunately we have a lot of footage of Pele, and what I can conclude from watching his highlights, he was as much as an artist as Ronaldinho 2005. But in the latter's case, there were several extreme athletes in the field opposing him at any moment of the game, be it 20m from the own goal, or deep in the attack, not hesitating at all in breaking his legs if he allowed it.
 
Three at the back when two of them are out and out full backs is a joke.

Also for the first team, I'm too young for Franz Beckenbauer but my understanding of him was he liked to stride forward into midfield all the time, so basically the first team has no defence really.
 
Just watched the United - Liverpool game,
United should have buried the Fernandez and Pogba chances but I reckon they'll be happy with the point.
Derby D'Italia on later as well, looking forward to that one.
 
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Zare said:
There are too many people before the video broadcast age.

However to play a devil's advocate here, the athletic performance of humans is always greater in the present because everything is moving forward. Fortunately we have a lot of footage of Pele, and what I can conclude from watching his highlights, he was as much as an artist as Ronaldinho 2005. But in the latter's case, there were several extreme athletes in the field opposing him at any moment of the game, be it 20m from the own goal, or deep in the attack, not hesitating at all in breaking his legs if he allowed it.
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Happened as well back in the day Zare.

Football is about individual capacities, there were good players back then. On all positions on the field. Good players from the past should (at least) be observed by what (or how; if you like style :) ) they did. Naturally in their own time.

As a bonus (not more), you can try and see how they would do nowadays as well, but that would not rule out the real past. At the same time I'm pretty confident that they could shine now as well. There was some dirty playing in the past, but these days players do not get so easily away with it, you know: zillion cameras, VAR. It was dirtier back then.

I'll be fair, I have been diving into this subject (on internet) so the following (source) is not my own, but it totally represents what I feel about it so here goes:
= = = = = = =
Defenders went into challenges far easier in the past. They were less fit.
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Yeah? You have no idea. Go watch Gentile vs Maradona in that era. If you thought what Atlético did to Messi yesterday was bad, just go and check that. Today the players are protected WAY more than they were before. More protection means they can do more amazing stuff instead of being fouled every minute. You can't even play when you are fouled every chance you get. That's why you need to evolve in your defensive tactics as well. But if you can cut them with a foul that could injure them and get away with it...

They were less fit.
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Compared to what? You don't always need fitness. Football doesn't depend exclusively on fitness. There were extremely fit players and others that weren't. Just like today where you have players like CR or players like Iniesta or Xavi. Both of which are at the top of the game with different levels of fitness. Yes, in general, maybe the players are more fit now, but that doesn't mean they didn't compensate with more skill and that today you have more of the fast strong players even if that means less skill. It evens out.

They had less knowledge of tactics, and teams as a whole were less organised.
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Tell that to the Dutch team in the 70s. Just to put one example.

Yeah, that's just one example, but it goes to prove that there were teams that were much better than the average team today, or even than the best teams from today. So yeah, it's not a no-argument thing as you want to make it look.

This obviously favours the argument for modern day players.
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Again, as I said above none of your arguments the objective 100% truth. And some are completely wrong like the one about the challenges being softer back then. It depends on the team and or players and the specific generation.

Of course you can pick a tactically inept team with unfit players from that time, but there are also teams like that today.

2) This is the point that often gets overlooked. It wasn't Pele's fault, or Maradona's fault, or Cruyff's fault, or whoever else from the past, that they didn't have access to modern day tactics, modern day technology (for football boots, pitches, balls, training facilities, etc.), modern day training programs for fitness, diet, muscle development, etc.
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You say this as if this was against them. They played with balls that were heavier, less perfect, harder to control, on pitches that were a complete mess and not the pool tables in which the current players play. With boots that were a lot heavier, with less advances to get fast recoveries on injuries so they would most of the time play even if they were injured. That requires skill, and lots of strength. A lot of skills and strength.

Put players from today in a pitch like those, with heavy boots and a heavy ball and they will start complaining a lot. Hell, they even complain if the grass 1 cm longer or shorter...

(Actually maybe it was their fault a bit, considering Cruyff in particular was quite rebellious and smoked during training and other shit too.)
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Some players still do that. They can smoke, they go out all night and party and don't train. That happens and will continue to happen. They just don't do it in the open like back then.

But anyway, the point is, they would be different players if they were playing today. No doubt they would have become footballers today due to all the advantages listed above.
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If you change the circumstances, any player will be different. But especially in those that were great, the essence would still be the same. Maradona, Pele, Cruijff... They weren't good because they were fitter than the rest. They had a skill that even today is unmatched. Maradona had a ball control that maybe not even Messi could match. I won't argue one way or another, but it is certain that Maradona's control, put in a field today, would put him easily in the TOP 5 players. Just his control, he wouldn't even need to run. That's something that's natural. And the training to improve that is just time with the ball. He had that back then, like most have it now.

A modern player like Messi can be considered better than Maradona or Pele from an objective, absolute viewpoint,
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No you can't. Football isn't about fitness. It's about skill. Not about being the most fit. Sure, you can compensate lack of skill with more training, to a certain point. But Maradona, Cruijff, Pele and so on had skills that players today can't even begin to dream of having. As I said above. If you can have players like Xavi and then someone like Ronaldo, and still play, you can see that fitness isn't the only thing. And sometimes skill is all you need (look at Riquelme's last years) to still be able to own the game.

With this I'm not saying that the past players were better, nor that today players are better. But the argument of players today being better just because some stuff evolved is completely false in a sport like soccer. Especially if you say there's no argument, because there is. I have absolutely no doubt that if you take Maradona, you put in Barca today, he would make rival teams look like amateurs. Just based on skill. Same if you put Pele in the box, he would score a gazillion goals and ridicule rivals.

I don't know who is the best, I don't think you should compare them, I think you should let them "rule" their own eras. But to say that one is inherently better just because they are from today is ridiculous. Especially when talking about players that were playing 25 years ago, which makes the actual gap a lot shorter: Maradona retired in 97, and Messi started in 04/05, less than 10 years. Make it 10 years if you want a Maradona that could actually play (back in 1994). Of course I used Maradona here because it's the most recent, and sure, if you go back to Di Stefano's time things have changed way more. But the same still applies. It's a game of skill. You can be the most unfit player ever and only walk the pitch, but if you have the skill and can "glue" the ball to your feet, you could have played back then and could play today.

= = = = = = =

Plus: until 1998 (new tackling rules) you could tackle from behind. i.e. take the man then the ball. That's a very different and in many ways much more difficult environment to play in than the modern day game for an attacker.
 
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Forostar said:
Plus: until 1998 (new tackling rules) you could tackle from behind. i.e. take the man then the ball. That's a very different and in many ways much more difficult environment to play in than the modern day game for an attacker.
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Players being injured for long parts of their careers because of how they smashed into challenges and put their bodies on the line was way more common than nowadays too, I'm thinking of guys like Bryan Robson.
 
@Forostar I don't have the time to read that up right now, I'll do so and respond...just meanwhile I need to put down this name here

en.wikipedia.org

Tomislav Ivić - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

This man is credited for being one of the most important in making "total football". I'm sure you know who he is. Total football, I ain't no expert, is the thing played today as opposed to stuff that was in 1970s and before (I watched one game with Platini, nobody is actively defending until the attack goes beyond 25m line)
 
Also tacking from behind is completely allowed today, if you hit the ball first, but if you don't you'll typically get a yellow or a sendoff if you really butchered it. I also wouldn't agree about the past skills because the athletics moves forward, the training systems move forward, nutrition, infrastructure, etc.

The guy @reddit also doesn't know what he's talking about. He's using Iniesta/Xavi as "less fit" example. Less fit footballers are fat and have bellies going on. Like the original Ronaldo.
 
Btw. This is my opinion, but Ronaldinho was technically gifted as Messi, Maradona, Cruyff, CR, Xavi, Iniesta combined. I'm talking basic motorics with a ball.

I'm using him as a prime example because I think he was the greatest footballer ever to walk the earth (2005-2008), and he had every bit of atractiveness and joga bonito in him as Pele Cruyff Maradona and the rest of the old school gang.

I've been following Barcelona religiously then, there were moments in an average game when two (or more!) people were literally trying to smash his legs off, somewhere on the left wing 40m from the goal. It didn't stop him making them look like an jackass. I vehemently stand behind the point that people did not do this to Pele,Maradona, or Cruyff en masse, it was not a pattern, take him down and get a yellow card, they could've run into stubborn defenders, and they did, it was nowhere near the amount and ferocity the modern "dribblers" receive
 
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Zare said:
@Forostar I don't have the time to read that up right now, I'll do so and respond...just meanwhile I need to put down this name here

en.wikipedia.org

Tomislav Ivić - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

This man is credited for being one of the most important in making "total football". I'm sure you know who he is. Total football, I ain't no expert, is the thing played today as opposed to stuff that was in 1970s and before (I watched one game with Platini, nobody is actively defending until the attack goes beyond 25m line)
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Sorry, I do not associate the term total football with modern era football at all, unless it is derived from the stuff that blossomed in the seventies.
I cannot find his credits (in relation to the term) so quickly, would you point me to them?

I really liked that cross between Michael Jackson and Bugs Bunny as well. Kidding dude, Ronaldinho was exceptional indeed. But he was a different player from the other three. I liked him more than Messi, personally.

I stand with what the Reddit guy and myself have said, especially the main argument. Skill, skill, skill.
Also tactical skill, being aware of the other players etc.
 
NBA is also the most skillful basketball league, and the most physically demanding one. So one does not negate the other.

Unfortunately Ivic's approach is not well documented. (there weren't many cameras/writers around him). He did won the league with Ajax so I thought it might ring a bell. He won many european leagues and I think he was the most successful in that category. Hajduk under him, in the mid 1970s was one of the best teams on the planet.

But the innovator stuff comes from Mourinho, Deschamps, and other names that were kids when Ivic was at his peak. There is a lot of info on him in the books of these guys, some of it was published in the papers when he died. He is famous in the coach circle.

Google isn't much helpful tho. When I run into something I'll try to remember and post it here. Meanwhile, there are ton of games on YT that this guy led in his prime, so if you're interested you can try searching yourself. Here's a short clip but it shows high pressing on the ball and a resulting goal.


My first experience with him is Italy-Croatia 1996 qualifiers. Italians were vice champions of the world, we beat them cleanly in Italy and qualified for Croatia's first tournament appearance as independent country. The stake of that game in Palermo resulted in Blazevic being pushed aside and Ivic taking the bench. Ivic was not on the same chapter "politically" with the rest, so he wasn't a coach, but when shit hit the fan, there was no other option. He took the post and crushed Italians. Blazevic continued to main the squad, the 96 appearance was very good, 98 was excellent and 2002 was bad because generation ends.

The 98 generation was closer to the Cup than latest one. Had Ivic mained the squad I'm sure we'd fare a bit better (Blazevic's patriotic motivations and his character were also a good buff), but Ivic on the bench and Alen Boksic not injured? World Cup baby.
 
Thanks, interesting, also your experiences. I do know him (but not in total football context; he came to Ajax after that emerged).
 
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