Official Football Thread
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Spain vs Portugal today…can anyone tell me what to look for? I know so little about these teams.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
Forostar said:
That's an interesting point, but the game has become so globalized, with players jumping from team to team on different continents, that national boundaries are falling away. Eventually, many of the top players in the world spend at least SOME time in the EPL, so the level of competition should still elevate the play of the top English players.
The ESPN guys were speculating today that Spain might bench arguably its best player, striker Fernando Torres, because he hasn't been playing well. Of course, people said that in the Euro Championships, and Torres then scored the winning goal in the final game. David Villa has been Spain's best player so far. I don't know that much about Portugal, other than Ronaldo. He's very good, and if anyone could beat Spain single-handedly, he might be able to. They are ranked #2 (Spain) and #3 in FIFA's world rankings (#1 is Brazil), so I plan to make time to watch.LooseCannon said:
Albie
Keeping an open eye on the Weeping Angels.
We have had a handful of English players play for real Madrid over the last decade or so: Steve McManaman, Michael Owen, Jonathan Woodgate as well as Beckham. And Owen Hargreaves played in the German league before coming to Man U. That's about it.cornfedhick said:
But the issue is it is unlikely they will leave a very, very lucrative deal in the Premiership in favour of a European club - even if they were good enough.
There was a stat that was banded about around a year or so ago and it stated that the Premiership has a fair percentage of English players across the whole league (I forget the figure, but it was substantial). The likes of Chelsea and Man City make it seem higher, but it's not that bad. An example was the starting line up in the Champions League final of 2008 - 9 Englishman - and we failed to qualify for Euro 2008. Personally, it was an overall bad team performance that made England look so poor in this World Cup - had we taken the form shown in qualifying (and they played better teams than Algeria and Slovenia - and possibly the US as well (Croatia)), we would have won the group.Forostar said:
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Capello had only 44 per cent of players in the Premier League to choose from. I don't think there is any football league in the world with such a low number.
I am not the only one who is referring to the Premier League (in spoilers due to length):
I am not the only one who is referring to the Premier League (in spoilers due to length):
World Cup 2010: Blame Premier League for England's lack of style, says Osvaldo Ardiles
England are at a crossroads and alarm bells should be ringing at the Football Association. This was a very poor campaign in the face of high expectation. The only conclusion that you can draw is that England’s problems run deep.
It is not a question of blaming Fabio Capello. Nor do I believe the manager has to be an Englishman. That is the wrong line of inquiry. The manager can only succeed with the players he has.
The wider issue to be adressed is why the quality of the Premier League, the best league in the world, does not translate itself to the national team.
Compare it with the situation in Spain. The national team have made progress, finally. For 20 years they were in a similar rut to England, going to major events with great players but going home with no success, their tails between their legs. They needed a style, and they have found it by, in my view, adopting the style of Barcelona.
England have not had a style, an identity, during this World Cup. I’m struggling to think of one combination play to open up a defence in four games. England’s problem is the lack of an identity.
An even bigger worry for England is the lack of great emerging players. Why is England not producing World Cup-winning teams at under-19, under-21 and under-23 level ? These are your stars of the future.
In South Africa, they lacked conviction in their method. They did not know if they were going to play through the back, the middle or go route one. For me, route one, and the long ball, went long ago. England had little about them that was not predictable.
There was no general in the outfield directing the shape of play, creating a single opening. At set-pieces they were dangerous, and they had power in the air, but apart from that, opposing teams had no need to worry too much about them if they played carefully.
The Premier League is partly to blame. It is win-at-all-costs and it perhaps sacrifices the aesthetics and skills. The very best things about the Premier League - the styles of Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester United - rely on the playmakers being foreigners. Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard are very fine players, but not technical players in the sense that they control the midfield and create chances. They like to arrive in the box, get on the end of crosses, and score.
Modern football is really about that. The teams doing well in this World Cup have players who can dominate the midfield, put 10 passes together and from there look for openings.
The issue for the FA is placing the priority on the national team. That’s what César Luis Menotti did with Argentina between 1974 and 1983. He insisted that the national team became the priority, and now they are always one of the leading protagonists. The English FA must do the same. The FA needs to press home the point that technique has to be uppermost. If you have the technique, you can then choose the football you want to play.
Germany are a direct team, but they have combination players, too. The Germans have found identity after quite a tough World Cup run. This team looks far more accomplished as a unit and a more dangerous prospect to Argentina than England might have been.
And Argentina? They have won every game, Diego Maradona and his players are openly enjoying the World Cup, and they have entertained. The ground rules for the identity was set by the Menotti revolution. Before him, Argentina were physical, had players sent off, went to the floor, dabbled in nonsense. We played football like it was war, not a dance with the leather ball.
If I’m hyper-critical, Argentina still have defensive problems, and they are not well-balanced as an XI, yet they have a style, know what they want to do, and other nations respect them. Maradona has those four dangerous musketeers up front - Lionel Messi, Carlos Tévez, Ángel di María and Gonzalo Higuaín - and when they counter-attack, they do so in numbers, skilfully and clinically.
That is a cutting edge England simply don’t have, or at the very least did not show once at this World Cup.
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... the one constant which runs through our failures in 2006, 2008 and now this summer is the players, who will be happy to shift the blame and retreat to the safety of their Premier League comfort zone ....
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It's time for a radicle re-think, says Ian Wright
SORRY Sir Dave, but it is going to take you longer than a fortnight to sort out this mess.
England's embarrassing World Cup went from bad to farce yesterday as it was revealed Sir Dave Richards, the chairman of the FA's international committee, sorry Club England, will make an announcement about Fabio Capello's future by July 12.
Should the Italian be allowed to stay on as coach? Or has the time come to get rid of him and give the job to an Englishman, such as Harry Redknapp or Roy Hodgson?
To be honest, it does not really matter. Because the main cause of England's failure in South Africa is not Capello or his tactics.
Nor is it his players who undoubtedly under-performed and failed to live up to their pre-match billing.
No, the No 1 reason our squad is back on home soil this morning is the structure of the game in this country.
And until there is a radical rethink domestically, we will continue to suffer on the international stage - regardless of who is in charge.
We could appoint the best coach in the world, English or otherwise. But if he does not have the pool of talented players to select his squad and team from, then he is always going to have to operate with one hand tied behind his back.
Capello had only 44 per cent of players in the Premier League to choose from.
A coach can only work with the tools available to him.
Capello never had those tools, in Sunday's 4-1 defeat by Germany or before.
Germany's team contained four players from their side which beat us 4-0 in the Euro Under-21s final 12 months ago.
We had one - James Milner. Where are our rising young stars, who will form the spine of the England team for years to come?
A few months ago when Germany coach Joachim Low was thinking of throwing the likes of Mesut Ozil and Jerome Boateng into World Cup duty, Capello was trying to persuade Jamie Carragher and Paul Scholes out of retirement.
That is nothing against those two warhorses who have always served their country with distinction. And it is nothing against Capello - what other choices did he have?
No, it is a sad indictment on the lack of English players coming through and for that you have to look at the clubs and the way our game is run.
England have just been crowned Under-17 champions of Europe. How many of those will be in the full squad in a few years? None probably. Maybe one or two at best.
But once these starlets get on the pro circuit, it seems clubs would rather buy average foreigners instead of investing in home-grown talent. It may have made the Premier League the best division in the world, but it has turned England into one of the poorest national sides.
I'm not moaning about the influx of quality overseas stars. Players like Gianfranco Zola, Jurgen Klinsmann, Dennis Bergkamp, Patrick Vieira, Emmanuel Petit et al, who have all improved our game.
But there are a number of foreign stars who manage to earn themselves contracts, even though in reality they are no better than the English-born players denied a chance.
That is because their club is either swayed by the glamour of an exotic-sounding signing or his willingness to do a job for far less money than the home-grown rookie IS demanding.
The lack of English players is not all down to managers. Chairmen and owners must carry some of the responsibility too.
Managers are given little time to nurture home-grown talent. At many clubs, youth policies are not high on the list of priorities. And maybe you can understand why.
I mean if Arsenal are not providing one player for Capello's 23, and often no Englishmen at all in their Premier League matches, why should other clubs bother?
Competing in the Champions League is all that matters to top clubs. That is why they prefer expensive foreigners to cultivating local young stars.
And the ironic thing is that, despite this, the Germans - or rather Bayern Munich - still did better than Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool in last season's competition.
Germany taught us a lesson on the pitch but we also need to learn from them off it. It was not so long ago the Bundesliga was reportedly dying on its backside, unable to pay the high wages and attract big names.
So the German clubs decided to invest in their youth systems rather than importing. The German national team is clearly thriving thanks to the wealth of talent the country's top division is producing. You can't say the same about us.
Any English player who plays well for a few games or scores a few goals is now touted for an England cap that used to be so hard to win.
I really believed we were going to do something special in South Africa.
I told everybody we were going to win the World Cup and I believed it.
I realise now my confidence was nothing more than blind faith and the only consolation is the Germans did not beat us 5-1.
But I feel so let down.
And while our big clubs are worried more about discovering revenue streams instead of the best young local players, England will sadly always remain second best.
And we should brace ourselves for more embarrassment, disappointment and heartache.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How the German system works
Who owns the clubs?
NO German club can be owned or controlled by a company or an individual person, so there is no chance of a Chelsea or Manchester City situation. But because German teams cannot pay expensive wages and transfer fees they focus more on young talent. For instance, Mesut Ozil was at the youth academy of Schalke, then Werder Bremen bought him for £3.8million - now he's worth around £18m.
Do kids get into the first team?
BUNDESLIGA sides use their second teams to bring on their youngsters. A year ago, Bayern striker Thomas Muller - who hit two goals against England - played for Bayern II in the German third division. The same is true for defender Holger Badstuber.
How many youngsters make it?
OF Sunday's victorious team four players - Manuel Neuer, Jerome Boateng, Sami Khedira and Mesut Ozil - were in the Germany Under-21 side that beat England 4-0 last summer to clinch the European Championship. Only James Milner upped his status for England.
How much do clubs pay in wages?
TOP-FLIGHT clubs in Germany paid 51 per cent of revenue in players' wages compared to a whopping 67 per cent in our own Premier League.
Do clubs fold?
NO teams in the German Bundesliga are in danger of entering administration - unlike debt-ridden Portsmouth were last season. And, in another indication of financial strength, more than half of the 18 clubs make a profit.
Must clubs develop youth?
TO obtain a licence to play in the Bundesliga you must run an academy and, as a result, the top two divisions spend £60million a year on these programmes.
That has helped raise the number of German-qualified players under the age of 23 playing in the Bundesliga from six per cent to 15 per cent.
How well do German teams do in the championships?
GERMANY'S success in bringing through talented youngsters has been highlighted by the displays of their national youth teams. In the last couple of years Germany have won European titles at Under-17, Under-19 and Under-21 level and Joachim Low's squad which humiliated England in Bloemfontein was their youngest to go to a World Cup in 76 years, containing six of the Under-21 championship-winning side.
Do fans pay high prices?
GERMAN gates are on average nearly 8,000 higher at 41,000 but ticket prices are much lower, with giants Borussia Dortmund - who won the European Cup in 1997 - charging as little as £13 compared to the average cost of £39 to watch a Premier League game. Figures for the 2008/09 season showed the Bundesliga had overtaken the Premier League as the most profitable in football.
How many Germans in Bundesliga?
THE proportion of Englishmen playing in the Premier League stands at a disappointing 44.3 per cent. In contrast, the Bundesliga's German representation is a more healthy 51.4 per cent.
Do we have any hope?
ENGLAND'S Under-17s took Germany's European title this season so maybe there is some hope for the future. But that all depends on what chances arise for those potential stars at Premier League clubs.
England are at a crossroads and alarm bells should be ringing at the Football Association. This was a very poor campaign in the face of high expectation. The only conclusion that you can draw is that England’s problems run deep.
It is not a question of blaming Fabio Capello. Nor do I believe the manager has to be an Englishman. That is the wrong line of inquiry. The manager can only succeed with the players he has.
The wider issue to be adressed is why the quality of the Premier League, the best league in the world, does not translate itself to the national team.
Compare it with the situation in Spain. The national team have made progress, finally. For 20 years they were in a similar rut to England, going to major events with great players but going home with no success, their tails between their legs. They needed a style, and they have found it by, in my view, adopting the style of Barcelona.
England have not had a style, an identity, during this World Cup. I’m struggling to think of one combination play to open up a defence in four games. England’s problem is the lack of an identity.
An even bigger worry for England is the lack of great emerging players. Why is England not producing World Cup-winning teams at under-19, under-21 and under-23 level ? These are your stars of the future.
In South Africa, they lacked conviction in their method. They did not know if they were going to play through the back, the middle or go route one. For me, route one, and the long ball, went long ago. England had little about them that was not predictable.
There was no general in the outfield directing the shape of play, creating a single opening. At set-pieces they were dangerous, and they had power in the air, but apart from that, opposing teams had no need to worry too much about them if they played carefully.
The Premier League is partly to blame. It is win-at-all-costs and it perhaps sacrifices the aesthetics and skills. The very best things about the Premier League - the styles of Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester United - rely on the playmakers being foreigners. Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard are very fine players, but not technical players in the sense that they control the midfield and create chances. They like to arrive in the box, get on the end of crosses, and score.
Modern football is really about that. The teams doing well in this World Cup have players who can dominate the midfield, put 10 passes together and from there look for openings.
The issue for the FA is placing the priority on the national team. That’s what César Luis Menotti did with Argentina between 1974 and 1983. He insisted that the national team became the priority, and now they are always one of the leading protagonists. The English FA must do the same. The FA needs to press home the point that technique has to be uppermost. If you have the technique, you can then choose the football you want to play.
Germany are a direct team, but they have combination players, too. The Germans have found identity after quite a tough World Cup run. This team looks far more accomplished as a unit and a more dangerous prospect to Argentina than England might have been.
And Argentina? They have won every game, Diego Maradona and his players are openly enjoying the World Cup, and they have entertained. The ground rules for the identity was set by the Menotti revolution. Before him, Argentina were physical, had players sent off, went to the floor, dabbled in nonsense. We played football like it was war, not a dance with the leather ball.
If I’m hyper-critical, Argentina still have defensive problems, and they are not well-balanced as an XI, yet they have a style, know what they want to do, and other nations respect them. Maradona has those four dangerous musketeers up front - Lionel Messi, Carlos Tévez, Ángel di María and Gonzalo Higuaín - and when they counter-attack, they do so in numbers, skilfully and clinically.
That is a cutting edge England simply don’t have, or at the very least did not show once at this World Cup.
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+
-------
... the one constant which runs through our failures in 2006, 2008 and now this summer is the players, who will be happy to shift the blame and retreat to the safety of their Premier League comfort zone ....
-------
+
-------
It's time for a radicle re-think, says Ian Wright
SORRY Sir Dave, but it is going to take you longer than a fortnight to sort out this mess.
England's embarrassing World Cup went from bad to farce yesterday as it was revealed Sir Dave Richards, the chairman of the FA's international committee, sorry Club England, will make an announcement about Fabio Capello's future by July 12.
Should the Italian be allowed to stay on as coach? Or has the time come to get rid of him and give the job to an Englishman, such as Harry Redknapp or Roy Hodgson?
To be honest, it does not really matter. Because the main cause of England's failure in South Africa is not Capello or his tactics.
Nor is it his players who undoubtedly under-performed and failed to live up to their pre-match billing.
No, the No 1 reason our squad is back on home soil this morning is the structure of the game in this country.
And until there is a radical rethink domestically, we will continue to suffer on the international stage - regardless of who is in charge.
We could appoint the best coach in the world, English or otherwise. But if he does not have the pool of talented players to select his squad and team from, then he is always going to have to operate with one hand tied behind his back.
Capello had only 44 per cent of players in the Premier League to choose from.
A coach can only work with the tools available to him.
Capello never had those tools, in Sunday's 4-1 defeat by Germany or before.
Germany's team contained four players from their side which beat us 4-0 in the Euro Under-21s final 12 months ago.
We had one - James Milner. Where are our rising young stars, who will form the spine of the England team for years to come?
A few months ago when Germany coach Joachim Low was thinking of throwing the likes of Mesut Ozil and Jerome Boateng into World Cup duty, Capello was trying to persuade Jamie Carragher and Paul Scholes out of retirement.
That is nothing against those two warhorses who have always served their country with distinction. And it is nothing against Capello - what other choices did he have?
No, it is a sad indictment on the lack of English players coming through and for that you have to look at the clubs and the way our game is run.
England have just been crowned Under-17 champions of Europe. How many of those will be in the full squad in a few years? None probably. Maybe one or two at best.
But once these starlets get on the pro circuit, it seems clubs would rather buy average foreigners instead of investing in home-grown talent. It may have made the Premier League the best division in the world, but it has turned England into one of the poorest national sides.
I'm not moaning about the influx of quality overseas stars. Players like Gianfranco Zola, Jurgen Klinsmann, Dennis Bergkamp, Patrick Vieira, Emmanuel Petit et al, who have all improved our game.
But there are a number of foreign stars who manage to earn themselves contracts, even though in reality they are no better than the English-born players denied a chance.
That is because their club is either swayed by the glamour of an exotic-sounding signing or his willingness to do a job for far less money than the home-grown rookie IS demanding.
The lack of English players is not all down to managers. Chairmen and owners must carry some of the responsibility too.
Managers are given little time to nurture home-grown talent. At many clubs, youth policies are not high on the list of priorities. And maybe you can understand why.
I mean if Arsenal are not providing one player for Capello's 23, and often no Englishmen at all in their Premier League matches, why should other clubs bother?
Competing in the Champions League is all that matters to top clubs. That is why they prefer expensive foreigners to cultivating local young stars.
And the ironic thing is that, despite this, the Germans - or rather Bayern Munich - still did better than Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool in last season's competition.
Germany taught us a lesson on the pitch but we also need to learn from them off it. It was not so long ago the Bundesliga was reportedly dying on its backside, unable to pay the high wages and attract big names.
So the German clubs decided to invest in their youth systems rather than importing. The German national team is clearly thriving thanks to the wealth of talent the country's top division is producing. You can't say the same about us.
Any English player who plays well for a few games or scores a few goals is now touted for an England cap that used to be so hard to win.
I really believed we were going to do something special in South Africa.
I told everybody we were going to win the World Cup and I believed it.
I realise now my confidence was nothing more than blind faith and the only consolation is the Germans did not beat us 5-1.
But I feel so let down.
And while our big clubs are worried more about discovering revenue streams instead of the best young local players, England will sadly always remain second best.
And we should brace ourselves for more embarrassment, disappointment and heartache.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How the German system works
Who owns the clubs?
NO German club can be owned or controlled by a company or an individual person, so there is no chance of a Chelsea or Manchester City situation. But because German teams cannot pay expensive wages and transfer fees they focus more on young talent. For instance, Mesut Ozil was at the youth academy of Schalke, then Werder Bremen bought him for £3.8million - now he's worth around £18m.
Do kids get into the first team?
BUNDESLIGA sides use their second teams to bring on their youngsters. A year ago, Bayern striker Thomas Muller - who hit two goals against England - played for Bayern II in the German third division. The same is true for defender Holger Badstuber.
How many youngsters make it?
OF Sunday's victorious team four players - Manuel Neuer, Jerome Boateng, Sami Khedira and Mesut Ozil - were in the Germany Under-21 side that beat England 4-0 last summer to clinch the European Championship. Only James Milner upped his status for England.
How much do clubs pay in wages?
TOP-FLIGHT clubs in Germany paid 51 per cent of revenue in players' wages compared to a whopping 67 per cent in our own Premier League.
Do clubs fold?
NO teams in the German Bundesliga are in danger of entering administration - unlike debt-ridden Portsmouth were last season. And, in another indication of financial strength, more than half of the 18 clubs make a profit.
Must clubs develop youth?
TO obtain a licence to play in the Bundesliga you must run an academy and, as a result, the top two divisions spend £60million a year on these programmes.
That has helped raise the number of German-qualified players under the age of 23 playing in the Bundesliga from six per cent to 15 per cent.
How well do German teams do in the championships?
GERMANY'S success in bringing through talented youngsters has been highlighted by the displays of their national youth teams. In the last couple of years Germany have won European titles at Under-17, Under-19 and Under-21 level and Joachim Low's squad which humiliated England in Bloemfontein was their youngest to go to a World Cup in 76 years, containing six of the Under-21 championship-winning side.
Do fans pay high prices?
GERMAN gates are on average nearly 8,000 higher at 41,000 but ticket prices are much lower, with giants Borussia Dortmund - who won the European Cup in 1997 - charging as little as £13 compared to the average cost of £39 to watch a Premier League game. Figures for the 2008/09 season showed the Bundesliga had overtaken the Premier League as the most profitable in football.
How many Germans in Bundesliga?
THE proportion of Englishmen playing in the Premier League stands at a disappointing 44.3 per cent. In contrast, the Bundesliga's German representation is a more healthy 51.4 per cent.
Do we have any hope?
ENGLAND'S Under-17s took Germany's European title this season so maybe there is some hope for the future. But that all depends on what chances arise for those potential stars at Premier League clubs.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
You are all discussing as if poor performances by England are something new. But since the foreigner invasion of the Premiership started in the mid 90s, England have had both very good torunaments and failed qualification campaigns. I mean, going out in the semis or quarters on penalties is good unless, of course, you are Germany.
Think about the following: In the late 70s and early 80s, English clubs dominated in Europe. Liverpool, Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa all won the European Cup between 1977 and 1984. Earlier in the 70s, other European clubs had done well in the UEFA Cup and Cup Winners Cup. In other words, the English league was then - like now - one of the very strongest in Europe. Still, England failed to qualify for the World Cup in both 1974 and 1978!
On the other hand, they did well in 1986 (quarter-finals, went out to the champions Argentina) and 1990 (semi, went out to the champions West Germany). During this period, English clubs were banned from European tournaments as a consequence of the Heysel disaster.
No, I think it is simpler. There are some very good (world class, at least top 20 in their position) players in the England squad. But it is not a squad full of such players. And a couple of the presumed world class players (namely Gerrard and Rooney) were not in good form for their respective clubs in the last couple of months. Gerrard had a weak season for Liverpool compared to his best, and - as pointed out by Albie - Rooney never returned to his top form after the injury against Bayern München. The mid defense was changed around continuously as Terry's partners were replaced, one by one.
So, to put it short: England have a handful of world class players, but not enough to be a serious candidate for the World Cup title. When those who are world class don't perform, England are an average team which should not be expected to go further than the round of 16.
We saw this World Cup's first penalty shootout today, and I was truly impressed by the 8 penalty takers who scored. All of them very well taken - none of them were flukes. Paraguay's penalty takers looked like a bunch of Germans.
Think about the following: In the late 70s and early 80s, English clubs dominated in Europe. Liverpool, Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa all won the European Cup between 1977 and 1984. Earlier in the 70s, other European clubs had done well in the UEFA Cup and Cup Winners Cup. In other words, the English league was then - like now - one of the very strongest in Europe. Still, England failed to qualify for the World Cup in both 1974 and 1978!
On the other hand, they did well in 1986 (quarter-finals, went out to the champions Argentina) and 1990 (semi, went out to the champions West Germany). During this period, English clubs were banned from European tournaments as a consequence of the Heysel disaster.
No, I think it is simpler. There are some very good (world class, at least top 20 in their position) players in the England squad. But it is not a squad full of such players. And a couple of the presumed world class players (namely Gerrard and Rooney) were not in good form for their respective clubs in the last couple of months. Gerrard had a weak season for Liverpool compared to his best, and - as pointed out by Albie - Rooney never returned to his top form after the injury against Bayern München. The mid defense was changed around continuously as Terry's partners were replaced, one by one.
So, to put it short: England have a handful of world class players, but not enough to be a serious candidate for the World Cup title. When those who are world class don't perform, England are an average team which should not be expected to go further than the round of 16.
We saw this World Cup's first penalty shootout today, and I was truly impressed by the 8 penalty takers who scored. All of them very well taken - none of them were flukes. Paraguay's penalty takers looked like a bunch of Germans.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Eddies Wingman said:
I think you are very mild in your analysis. It sounds like you skip the reason why England have too many weak players (and face it: England were not good enough to be a serious candidate for the quarter final!). Hesley is really a poor choice, but what can you do if there is no one else better than this incredibly bad player?
Those articles summed it up pretty well, didn't they?
edit: I like the comparing with the late 70s and early 80s, and will come back to that, later.
Albie
Keeping an open eye on the Weeping Angels.
Can't disagree enough, sorry Ossie. The leading player with assists in the Premiership last season was Lampard - 17. The player with the highest percentage of assists in relation to the team overall is Milner - 25%. In fact, English players make up 3 out of the top 5 assister's in the Premier league last season.Ossie Ardiles said:
Source
Look, I'm not trying to argue anything too different than what most people are saying, here and elsewhere, I just don't think we can put the blame on this World Cup exit solely at the door of the foreigners. But we do need to get this balance right although it may prove difficult if owners/managers of these clubs are foreign themselves. Fair play to Ferguson for getting this balance almost right though.
And a note on the percentage of foreigners in the Premier league, it is around 35% English and if that equates to 150/160 players, then you should be able to get a reasonable squad of 30 from that. Another point is that almost every single Irish & Welsh footballer as well as a lot of Scots play for Premier league clubs and they all count as foreigners - which does not help any statistic.
Although, if Portugal beat Spain tonight, my quarter final line up will be 7 out of 8 correctly predicted. Had my head not ruled my heart, it would have been 8 out of 8. Can anyone top that?
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Albie said:
Well, if Spain win, I'll have 8 out of 8 if I recall correctly.
Edit: Oh no, I didn't. I actually predicted USA to beat Ghana. Oh well, I'll get the quarter final winners right then.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
I was wearing the realistic pants that day, not the hopeful ones.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
4 South American countries reached the quarter finals: a record! And they all can go to the semi final!
3 European countries is a very small number, because the average is 6!
1 African county, Ghana is only the third reaching the quarter finals after Cameroon (1990) and Ivory Coast (2002).
3 European countries is a very small number, because the average is 6!
1 African county, Ghana is only the third reaching the quarter finals after Cameroon (1990) and Ivory Coast (2002).
Albie
Keeping an open eye on the Weeping Angels.
Was you?Will-I-Am said:
Albie said:
6/8.
To get to the semis:
Netherlands v Brazil - I'm going to stick with the Dutch as I think they may surprise the Brazilians.
Uruguay v Ghana - Uruguay for me here, Forlan still on course for player of the tournament.
Argentina v Germany - The Germans because of their belief in themselves.
Paraguay v Spain - Perhaps an easier ride for Spain here than some may feel.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Albie said:
The same as Albie. I'll go further and predict the top 4 spots too, which may have to change if any of the 4 are incorrect.
Gold - Spain
Silver - Netherlands
Bronze - Germany
Fourth - Uruguay
I'll be camping during all of the quarter-finals, so I vainly hope to watch the games after I return. (This means I'm not seeing IM play live, for those of you that keep track of cities toured).
EDIT: I was 6/8 correct on the round of 16 as well. I got Ghana and Paraguay wrong.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Getting back to this:
A brilliant period for English club football indeed.
1977: EC 1: Liverpool
1978: EC 1: Liverpool
1979: EC 1: Nottingham Forest
1980: EC 1: Nottingham Forest + Arsenal reaches final in UEFA cup
1981: EC 1: Liverpool + EC 2: Ipswich Town
1982: EC 1: Aston Villa
1983: No English club success in Europe (nor final)
1984: EC 1: Liverpool + EC 2: Tottenham Hotspur
1985: Everton wins UEFA cup + Liverpool reaches final in EC 1
1974 wasn't exactly the year in which the English League was the strongest, that is: when you're comparing with European success. Still, in 1973 Leeds United reached the UEFA Cup final and Liverpool the EC 2 final and in 1974 Tottenham was beaten by Feyenoord in the EC 2 final. In the 1969-1974 era not a single English club in one of the EC 1 finals. Still, they missed qualification by an inch, not being able to win from Poland (with a superb goalkeeper) while having many chances.
England not qualifying for the World Cup in 1978 is more surprising, but if you read into the background it's more understandable:
... Revie's methods and habits were criticised - insisting on increasing players' appearance fees when no player had expressed dissatisfaction, calling up oversized squads, dropping or ignoring in-form players, and trying to cultivate a 'club' atmosphere with the players which had worked among his squads as a domestic manager - and Revie also fell out with Alan Ball, the last of the 1966 winners, in the summer of 1975, removing him without warning or reason from both captaincy and team and bringing a sudden end to his international career.
Revie selected a squad to take part in a mini-tournament in South America in the summer of 1977 but initially did not accompany the players, saying he was going to scout the opposition England were still due to face in the ultimately unsuccessful bid to qualify for the 1978 World Cup. In fact, he was putting the final seal on a lucrative deal to take charge of the national side of the United Arab Emirates. After his resignation, he was punished by the FA and banned from working in English football for a decade, and although he overturned the ban on appeal, his reputation was ruined and he never worked in English football again.
After the departure of Revie, Brian Clough applied for the post but the FA rejected him and instead gave the role to Ron Greenwood, who had been brought out of retirement to act as caretaker after Revie's exit. He was unable to rescue England's campaign to reach the 1978 World Cup - the damage had been done by a 2-0 defeat to Italy in the Stadio Olimpico in Rome in November 1976 during Revie's era. Though level with Italy on points, England missed out on qualification on goal difference (had they scored 3 goals more, they would have made the finals). Failure to beat relatively weak teams more comprehensively had again cost England dearly. Italy though were a very good team and would finish fourth at the 1978 World Cup.
It looks like there was some bad guidance especially by Revie, who also had other interests, but again: England almost qualified.
This time, 2010 is a different era. First the European football comparison: No Premier League club in the semi's of the Champions League, and only Fullham reached the final in another European Cup.
Much more important:
In these days not many young talents break through, as shown in the articles I have posted. So much money and attention (and foreigners) is going into the Premier League that it's slowly turning into NHL. It's more important what the club does, than what the national team does (Hockey on Olympic Games excluded). The PL hasn't reached that stage 100% yet and I still think there is time to change things. England after all have won the under 17 European Championship which is excellent. Now if only these youngsters will get as much attention as some imported millionaires, things might be looking good again. Come on England!
Eddies Wingman said:
A brilliant period for English club football indeed.
1977: EC 1: Liverpool
1978: EC 1: Liverpool
1979: EC 1: Nottingham Forest
1980: EC 1: Nottingham Forest + Arsenal reaches final in UEFA cup
1981: EC 1: Liverpool + EC 2: Ipswich Town
1982: EC 1: Aston Villa
1983: No English club success in Europe (nor final)
1984: EC 1: Liverpool + EC 2: Tottenham Hotspur
1985: Everton wins UEFA cup + Liverpool reaches final in EC 1
Eddies Wingman said:
1974 wasn't exactly the year in which the English League was the strongest, that is: when you're comparing with European success. Still, in 1973 Leeds United reached the UEFA Cup final and Liverpool the EC 2 final and in 1974 Tottenham was beaten by Feyenoord in the EC 2 final. In the 1969-1974 era not a single English club in one of the EC 1 finals. Still, they missed qualification by an inch, not being able to win from Poland (with a superb goalkeeper) while having many chances.
England not qualifying for the World Cup in 1978 is more surprising, but if you read into the background it's more understandable:
... Revie's methods and habits were criticised - insisting on increasing players' appearance fees when no player had expressed dissatisfaction, calling up oversized squads, dropping or ignoring in-form players, and trying to cultivate a 'club' atmosphere with the players which had worked among his squads as a domestic manager - and Revie also fell out with Alan Ball, the last of the 1966 winners, in the summer of 1975, removing him without warning or reason from both captaincy and team and bringing a sudden end to his international career.
Revie selected a squad to take part in a mini-tournament in South America in the summer of 1977 but initially did not accompany the players, saying he was going to scout the opposition England were still due to face in the ultimately unsuccessful bid to qualify for the 1978 World Cup. In fact, he was putting the final seal on a lucrative deal to take charge of the national side of the United Arab Emirates. After his resignation, he was punished by the FA and banned from working in English football for a decade, and although he overturned the ban on appeal, his reputation was ruined and he never worked in English football again.
After the departure of Revie, Brian Clough applied for the post but the FA rejected him and instead gave the role to Ron Greenwood, who had been brought out of retirement to act as caretaker after Revie's exit. He was unable to rescue England's campaign to reach the 1978 World Cup - the damage had been done by a 2-0 defeat to Italy in the Stadio Olimpico in Rome in November 1976 during Revie's era. Though level with Italy on points, England missed out on qualification on goal difference (had they scored 3 goals more, they would have made the finals). Failure to beat relatively weak teams more comprehensively had again cost England dearly. Italy though were a very good team and would finish fourth at the 1978 World Cup.
It looks like there was some bad guidance especially by Revie, who also had other interests, but again: England almost qualified.
This time, 2010 is a different era. First the European football comparison: No Premier League club in the semi's of the Champions League, and only Fullham reached the final in another European Cup.
Much more important:
In these days not many young talents break through, as shown in the articles I have posted. So much money and attention (and foreigners) is going into the Premier League that it's slowly turning into NHL. It's more important what the club does, than what the national team does (Hockey on Olympic Games excluded). The PL hasn't reached that stage 100% yet and I still think there is time to change things. England after all have won the under 17 European Championship which is excellent. Now if only these youngsters will get as much attention as some imported millionaires, things might be looking good again. Come on England!
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Forostar said:
Most of what you wrote made good sense, but this made me cringe. How isl the 2010 season an "era"? Since 2005 there has been an English team in the final every year except for 2010 - that is, five seasons in succession. There hasn't been a sudden move of power between the different leagues, has there? Despite Bayern München and Inter playing the final this year I'd still say both the English and Spanish leagues are better. And when your point is that the English league is not producing enough talent for the national team to compete with the best, I can't see how the results in the quarter-finals of the Champions League in one particular season will change that around.
I agree it is a problem that the Premiership is so dominated by foreign players, but more because it cuts the bond between the teams and the fans. It's harder for a kid from Islington, London to relate to an Arsenal team consisting of players from former French colonies than a team packed with cockneys. And if the Premier League clubs choose to go with young talent from abroad rather than looking for it locally, it gets harder for English talent to break through. That's obvious. But I don't think it explains the misfortune of the English national team the last two major tournaments. If you look at the entire era since the foreign invasion started (say 1995), the English national team has not performed consistently worse than they did between 1970 and 1995.
My point is - despite the obvious concern that the talent growth is not as good anymore - the English national team has hardly ever been just as good internationally as the relative strength of their league should imply. If they were, they should have been one of the best 5-6 in the world, consistently. They aren't now, and they really have not been earlier. Thus, I don't see the need for a lot of explanations for this particular failure to get far in the World Cup.
However, there is a need to look into why the team hardly ever performs up to the standard of its domestic league. The team has many players who are also among the dominating players of said league. The national team does just not benefit from it. Is it a lack of team spirit? Is it the pressure of coping with unrealistic expectations or a fear of being the scapegoat? Something else?
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
No fucking chance that gold silver and bronze will be taken by Europeans.
The way i see it, Brazil, Argentina, and Spain are in semi-finals, i only have doubts with Uruguay / Ghana.
The way i see it, Brazil, Argentina, and Spain are in semi-finals, i only have doubts with Uruguay / Ghana.